Lifting emulsion on commercial film

[foc]

My understanding is that Svema colour films, negative or transparency, never made the transition to C41 or E6 processes. They stayed with the old Agfa processes (CNS for prints, AP41 for transparencies or the Soviet equivelent).

You could have a read of these.
http://www.florisdox.com/expired-agfacolor-cns-c41/
https://photoroobit.wordpress.com/2011/11/20/film-test-свема-цо-32д-svema-co-32d-from-the-year-1986/

 

[Xylo]

That would make sense.
Agfacolor having been around since the 1930's, they had no real reason to upgrade.

 

[Lachlan Young]

That would make sense.
Agfacolor having been around since the 1930's, they had no real reason to upgrade.

It's much more complicated than that - one of the biggest problems was the limitations and inefficiency of the Warsaw Pact organic chemical industry at dealing with the manufacture of complex fine chemicals - quite a lot has been written about ORWO's travails in attempting to manufacture a C-41 compatible material. Svema was essentially WWII era Agfa technology, scooped up at the end of WW2 and translated to a factory within the USSR.

 

[YoIaMoNwater]

This is pretty interesting because I got a bulk roll of Agfacolor that expired in the 1980’s and the seller has no idea what version it is. I’be been doing some research on how to process old Agfa film in C41 and it definitely seems like the temperature is a critical factor, as normal 37C causes peeling of the emulsion. I’ve read that the temperature should be at least 18C, so perhaps this could be tried with your problematic films. If I have time I’ll test this as well.

 

[MattKing]

If I read the labelling correctly, and the information on Wikipedia is correct, the 100 DIN film is black and white.

 

[foc]

quite a lot has been written about ORWO's travails in attempting to manufacture a C-41 compatible material.

Hi, do you have any links or references to this as I would like to read up on it, please?

 

[Lachlan Young]

Hi, do you have any links or references to this as I would like to read up on it, please?

One chapter that immediately comes to mind is Silke Fengler's 'Innovation in a Centrally Planned Economy: The Case of the Filmfabrik Wolfen' in Berghoff and Balbier's The East German Economy, 1945-2010 Falling Behind Or Catching Up? published by Cambridge University Press in 2013. Orwo was seemingly quite reliant on a barter-based relationship with Agfa Leverkusen until somewhere around the early 1960s - and while within the USSR/ Warsaw Pact there was sufficient research capacity to have designed and engineered E6/ C-41 compatible products, the problem was manufacturing them (there was a lack of test coating/ analysis facilities, R&D investment was a fraction of Agfa Gevaert, let alone EK in the 1960s, and there were problems with introducing new products/ quality procedures to a workforce that thought its opinions outweighed the science), the disorganised nature of the supply of feedstocks/ components (the command economy having decreed what was to be made where), upgrading the associated processing technology/ infrastructure etc - all at a time when the DDR economy was suffering from the various problems that beset it from the 1970s onwards (the Coffee Crisis etc - silver also had to be purchased on the world market).

 

[foc]

One chapter that immediately comes to mind is Silke Fengler's 'Innovation in a Centrally Planned Economy: The Case of the Filmfabrik Wolfen' in Berghoff and Balbier's The East German Economy, 1945-2010 Falling Behind Or Catching Up? published by Cambridge University Press in 2013. Orwo was seemingly quite reliant on a barter-based relationship with Agfa Leverkusen until somewhere around the early 1960s - and while within the USSR/ Warsaw Pact there was sufficient research capacity to have designed and engineered E6/ C-41 compatible products, the problem was manufacturing them (there was a lack of test coating/ analysis facilities, R&D investment was a fraction of Agfa Gevaert, let alone EK in the 1960s, and there were problems with introducing new products/ quality procedures to a workforce that thought its opinions outweighed the science), the disorganised nature of the supply of feedstocks/ components (the command economy having decreed what was to be made where), upgrading the associated processing technology/ infrastructure etc - all at a time when the DDR economy was suffering from the various problems that beset it from the 1970s onwards (the Coffee Crisis etc - silver also had to be purchased on the world market).

Thank you for taking the time to give a detailed reply, much appreciated.

 

[Xylo]

Fascinating.
But coming back to processing a bit, my friend plans to try stand development or semi-stand development in C-41 at a pretty low temperature to prevent the emulsion from liquefying. He plans on keeping the developer and blix well below room temperature.
Any opinion on that?

 

[Lachlan Young]

@Xylo C-41 at 20oC with continuous agitation will produce an image on Svema colour film without stripping the emulsion. I can't remember the exact process time though. I think the starting point was C-41 process time and extrapolated for temperature

 

[foc]

this might help
http://www.florisdox.com/expired-agfacolor-cns-c41/

 

[Xylo]

That's fantastic!
Pretty much just what we were looking for