LFI Magazine subscription...when they won't take no for an answer!

[film_man]

Funny and slightly bizarre story below...just wondering if someone had a similar experience with LFI...

Here it goes: I bought a 2-year LFI subscription in 2020. Sub run, expired, they stopped sending me that magazine. Obviously got a renewal reminder but decided not to renew, so deleted that email. 2nd reminder arrives, ignored. Then they send one via post! Ok, I mean, that's what magazines do! They keep sending you renewal subscribers, I have National Geographic, some Conde Nast stuff so that's how it works, they keep reminding you, they even send you discount offers but if you don't want it, you ignore it, they don't send you the magazine. Job done.

But no...LFI won't take no for an answer. Queue the 2nd letter, actual letter on paper, with an invoice, payment details and threat of legal action. I mean...what can I say, they really are persistent that lot. "You better renew that sub of yours or else". Ermm...yeah right, that's how it works.

So, anyway, I actually replied via email explaining how magazine subscriptions and renewals work, especially if you are selling fixed term subscriptions. Let's see what they come back with.

But...has anyone else had a similar experience with them? It is a shame they are in Germany and I'm in the UK, if they were in the UK as well I could probably sue them for harrassment.

 

[AgX]

A fixed term subscription may mean that one makes a contract that at least runs to this date and that there is a clause that makes the subscription automatically go further unless explicitely cancelled before a certain date.

That they stopped sending the magazine might mean they did so because your were over time with your new payment after the subscription automatically got prolonged.

Did you consider this scenario respectively that you overlooked such clause?


That they see a legal case but the same time offer a rebate is confusing though...

 

[film_man]

A fixed term subscription may mean that one makes a contract that at least runs to this date and that there is a clause that makes the subscription automatically go further unless explicitely cancelled before a certain date.

That they stopped sending the magazine might mean they did so because your were over time with your new payment after the subscription automatically got prolonged.

Did you consider this scenario respectively that you overlooked such clause?


That they see a legal case but the same time offer a rebate is confusing though...

They stopped sending the magazine at the issue that the subscription ended. I have found the original invoicewhich states the last issue to be received which is the last one I got. Indeed I also saw that the subscription "renews" automatically and they require cancellation notice before the renewal. So my bad on that I guess.

So:
- you have to notify them that you do not wish to renew
- they don't actually renew anyway as they stop sending issues out, they just send you an invoice
- there is no mechanism to have recurring payment setup to facilitate the auto-renewal, it is based on invoices and one-off payments

Basically once the subscription runs out their claim to renewal is an invoice they send you for payment. At this stage every other magazine publisher assumes you no longer want the subscription if you don't pay, yet LFI considers this is a contract for chasing you via legal.

I wonder if they will now try to bill me for two issues as that is effectively their notice period. Which would mean I have to pay them so they can THEN deliver the issues I supposedly owe them for?

A rather bizarre and old fashinoed way to do a magazine subscription in 2022. I guess it is very Leica.

 

[AgX]

A rather bizarre and old fashinoed way to do a magazine subscription in 2022. I guess it is very Leica.

Well, the auto-prolongation is a subscription set-up typical in Germany.

But they are to blame to have worded in a way that you did not realize about it.



I got some kind of similar issue with German Mail, who in a letter sent to me gave a certain minimum period for cancellation at a leasing, but then extending this period in their terms of use without informing me.

 

[Jesper]

The hassle of ending a subscription has actually stopped me from subscribing to anything at all except Photrio. One might wonder if the profit from forced continuation is greater than the lost subscriptions from the likes of me.

 

[film_man]

The hassle of ending a subscription has actually stopped me from subscribing to anything at all except Photrio. One might wonder if the profit from forced continuation is greater than the lost subscriptions from the likes of me.

With companies like Conde Nast or newspapers, in the UK it is typical to setup auto payments for the auto renewal. If you want to cancel they will generally have some obscure number in small print you have to call which makes it a hassle. However, if you simply cancel the payments they stop sending you the magainze. Which is fine as they always collect payment well in advance, ie they are never in a position where they have sent you something you haven't paid for.

For other subscriptions where you buy a one-off (ie fixed term with no auto payments) they'll hassle you to pay up and renew, generally well in advance of the subscription expiring. But they won't send you anything and then they stop bothering you after 3-4 "reminders".

I've never though been in a position where somebody issues an invoice for services/goods not yet delivered and then get threatened with legal enforcement for non payment for the goods that were never received! Certainly not in the retail space!

 

[gone]

Sometimes nothing happens until you get to the right people. I would fire off a letter or email to whoever is senior management and explain your problem.

I'd also mention that you plan on talking about your troubles w/ their irrational company on every online forum known to beast or man. Here in the US, we can file formal complaints w/ the Better Business Bureau and state and federal regulators.

I go by the Malcom X credo "by any means necessary". Someone once mulled that over and asked me "Doesn't that mean possibly doing something unethical to achieve your goals?" They missed the point. The idea is to have them BELIEVE you will do it, you don't have to actually do it. When someone says that w/ force and meaning, things change. Occasionally, they won't change until that happens.

 

[logan2z]

You're not alone...

Threatening Letter from LFI

Dear fellow forum users, I have subscribed to LFI for several years. While I have enjoyed it, the cost of subscribing from North America is high. So this year I decided not to renew my subscription and let it lapse, as one does. After several letters urging me to renew and offers of free gifts, I...

www.l-camera-forum.com

 

[pentaxuser]

Sometimes nothing happens until you get to the right people. I would fire off a letter or email to whoever is senior management and explain your problem.

That's assuming it is not the senior management who thought this diabolical plot up in the first place.

Often when they are exposed to the white heat of bad publicity, the culprit is usually found and punished. The number of rogue mailboys in these organisation never fails to astound me

The OP's story reminded me immediately of Nathaniel West's books, Miss Lonelyhearts and A Cool Million. Written in the 1930s but very reminiscent of today's world or so I feel

pentaxuser

 

[brbo]

Exactly the same story, except the magazine in question was PhotoKlassic. Looks like Germans do it that way.

Obviously I was not that interested in the magazine anymore to make sure I made the payment on time and then ignored the letters that followed thinking subscription will lapse by itself if I don't pay... only to later find an issue of the magazine in my mailbox with a "friendly" note.

That was a year or two ago, I'm still a subscriber but it left a bitter taste. This reminds me I need to cancel the subscription...

 

[pentaxuser]

That was a year or two ago, I'm still a subscriber but it left a bitter taste. This reminds me I need to cancel the subscription...

I am confused. Is it the case that under EU law anyone subscribing to a magazine for a set period of the magazine's or subscriber's choice which then elapses still has to send a cancellation statement otherwise that person is in contravention of the law?

In the event of the magazine company taking legal action because the subscriber has not sent a cancellation statement what is it that the magazine can actually claim damages for? It appears that the magazine has chosen to no longer send the magazine as the subscriber is long longer sending money so what loss or damages is the magazine claiming for?

pentaxuser

 

[AgX]

I am confused. Is it the case that under EU law anyone subscribing to a magazine for a set period of the magazine's or subscriber's choice which then elapses still has to send a cancellation statement otherwise that person is in contravention of the law?

As said in Germany such is common practice, however the automatic prolongation must be stated in the contract. Another trap is a reduced fee for the first fixed period, which then is raised with the automatic prolongation. Of course this too must be part of the contract.

 

[brbo]

I am confused. Is it the case that under EU law anyone subscribing to a magazine for a set period of the magazine's or subscriber's choice which then elapses still has to send a cancellation statement otherwise that person is in contravention of the law?

No. IMNAL, but I would expect EU/Germany to be as any other civilised county. That is, to have some sort of Law on obligations and contracts that will give the legislative frame to the publisher and subscriber to be free to set and agree on the terms of the subscription (basically to be free to agree on a contract). I'm pretty sure that OP was made aware of terms/contract when he subscribed to LFI Magazine (at least I was when I subscribed to PhotoKlassik).

Subscriber's expectation of what happens if subscription is not payed has nothing to do with the law (but only to do with what is written in the contract). Obviously, most of us expect that non-payment is equal to a subscription cancellation even though that is technically not enough when a contract specifically says that subscription cancellation must be made explicitly.

 

[mshchem]

New idea for a magazine. Screwed the magazine for Leica thread mount camera fans.

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks AgX and brbo. It just all seems so strange and bureaucratic to me. If the subscriber has subscribed for the full term for which he signed, has then stopped his subscription and the magazine had not sent further magazines so has not lost money then why bother to pursue the subscriber with a threat of legal action. All it does is to create a situation where the subscriber is even less likely to reconsider another subscription in the future so the magazine's actions ensure that it not only has lost a customer for the near future but maybe forever.

As I understand consumer psychology the very worse action a company can take is to create what I think is called "the remembered hurt" in which the consumer's feels he was unfairly treated

pentaxuser

 

[MattKing]

The problem is that the subscriber didn’t stop his subscription, because the contract put the onus on the subscriber to do something particular before the agreement to continue delivery ended.
Whether that contractual provision is wise, or fair, or prohibited by statute is another question.
Magazine distribution costs are very high, and usually contracted out. One needs to read the agreements really carefully, and comply with them exactly.

 

[pentaxuser]

I just wondered if the end result of the magazine's actions was that in practical terms such as retention of customers and future goodwill made said magazine's actions worthwhile. What has it gained?

I once saw a great cartoon painting in a forensic scientist's office. It was a picture of 2 men, one pulling on the horns of a cow and the other its tail. Underneath were two lawyers for the plaintiff and defendant having a perfectly calm and civil conversation while milking the cow. The title of the cartoon was "The Lawsuit"

Few other cartoon paintings have stayed with me quite like that one has

pentaxuser

 

[AgX]

Thanks AgX and brbo. It just all seems so strange and bureaucratic to me.

Well, one german publisher of a magazine of which I likely was the their longest time subscriber (decades) even started a court case against me, and of course stopped sending the magazine, stating that they did not get the annual prepay. This in spite of me having this paid with correct data before being due, and my bank confirming this, even stating that the money transfer has reached their account.
On me rejecting their claim they stopped the case, but the same time they ended the subscription with still owing me most of the magazines I already paid for. It then would have been to me to go to court against them to get the lacking editions...

 

[guangong]

New idea for a magazine. Screwed the magazine for Leica thread mount camera fans.

Great title.
Long ago I subscribed to LP, but finally dropped subscription when contents were less and less amateur and more and more professional commercial. The latter is ubiquitous in advertisements, no need to pay to see more. Ignorant of current magazine contents.
I subscribed to several German cinematography magazines but never had a problem, perhaps because they went under before able to threaten.

 

[Chan Tran]

I am confused. Is it the case that under EU law anyone subscribing to a magazine for a set period of the magazine's or subscriber's choice which then elapses still has to send a cancellation statement otherwise that person is in contravention of the law?

In the event of the magazine company taking legal action because the subscriber has not sent a cancellation statement what is it that the magazine can actually claim damages for? It appears that the magazine has chosen to no longer send the magazine as the subscriber is long longer sending money so what loss or damages is the magazine claiming for?

pentaxuser

They lost the profit....