LF Novice

Joe O'Brien · Jul 6, 2010

Within a few months I plan to break into LF, probably with a 4x5. I was wondering what a comprable lens would be to a 6x6 80mm for 4x5 format. Also I'd like to have a lens that covers 5x7 so I have plenty of room for swing, rise, tilt, etc.

I'm Also looking for suggestions on what type of 4x5 to go with, I think I'd like a monorail so I have a lot of freedom, but I also need to be able to carry this camera about 100yds.

Then I think I also need a ground glass back as well as some film holders, what are my options for a back? I'd enjoy one that allows me to use roll film to do panoramas, but I'm guessing that'd be very expensive...

One last chaviot is money, I'm fine saving my money for a while so that I come in to LF with a good camera. Although I would like to go LF sooner vs later.

In summary I'm a total novice. Please help!

Ian Grant · Jul 6, 2010

The lens is easy an f5,6 150mm Symmar or Sironar are the most common, but Nikon' Fuji's are OK as well. Things like 150mm Xenar's, Ektar's, Tessars's etc have poorer coverage.

Cameras aren't usually that heavy, but I'd question why yo think you should need a monorail, I have two but find my Wista field camera has more than enough movements, and in over 20 years I've yet to come across a situation where the monorail would be better, except for commercial studio use.

New Shen Hoa's are affordable, second-hand Wista's, Tachihara's etc have plenty of movements are reasonably light easy to carry many miles, up mountains etc. Then there's always cheap monorails on this forum less than $200.

Ian

John Kasaian · Jul 6, 2010

Joe O'Brien said:
Within a few months I plan to break into LF, probably with a 4x5. I was wondering what a comprable lens would be to a 6x6 80mm for 4x5 format. Also I'd like to have a lens that covers 5x7 so I have plenty of room for swing, rise, tilt, etc.

I'm Also looking for suggestions on what type of 4x5 to go with, I think I'd like a monorail so I have a lot of freedom, but I also need to be able to carry this camera about 100yds.

Then I think I also need a ground glass back as well as some film holders, what are my options for a back? I'd enjoy one that allows me to use roll film to do panoramas, but I'm guessing that'd be very expensive...

One last chaviot is money, I'm fine saving my money for a while so that I come in to LF with a good camera. Although I would like to go LF sooner vs later.

In summary I'm a total novice. Please help!

If you can carry a small suitcase 100 yards you can carry a monorail 100 yards. Monos generally take longer to set up unles you want to carry it on it's tripod infantryman style. If you want to use the same camera to shoot 5x7 look for an Ansco Universal or similar flatbed---they fold up kind of chunky but there are 5x7 backs will fit them as well. If you don't want to shoot 5x7 someday there are lots of wooden clamshells like Tachihara, Wista etc...

Buy your camera with it's ground glass back so you can start shooting right away.

Yup, you'll need film holders. I like the old style Riteways for my 4x5.

Agfas and similar 4x5/5x7 flat beds have sliders---little pieces of wood than engage in slots in the back. With a 5x7 back that will give you two 2-1/2"x7" negatives on a single sheet of 5x7.

There are plenty of lenses that will cover 4x5 and 5x7 but I'll let other more knowlegable people make recommendations (I'm rather fond of the 203 Ektar 210 G Claron and 215 Ilex but these are a tad longer than what you asked for)

I hope this helps!

Pinholemaster · Jul 6, 2010

the "normal" focal length for any given format is the diagonal measurement of the film plane

this is why a 80mm is considered "normal" for 6x6.

on 4x5, a 135 or 150 mm lens is considered "normal"

some prefer a 210 mm for their standard lens

any modern lens from the 135 to 210 length will give you plenty of lens movement to cover your swings, tilts, rise and falls

Joe O'Brien · Jul 6, 2010

Okay, thank you all for your prompt and informed responses. This was a lot of help!

Ian

If not a mono then what do you guys suggest I get for a camera? A field camera?
If a field camera than what should I go with? Would a wooden field camera be a bad idea because of its ability to warp?

John

I don't really intend to shoot 5x7, just stick with 4x5 for the forseeable future. Are there any backs that would allow me to shoot a panorama in 4x5? What are they called and about how much are they?

Pinholemaster

Thank you for the explanation of how to determine a "normal lens". If I got a 150mm lens that covered a 5x7 would it still be a 150mm lens on a 4x5 or is there a conversion factor? Also, Is this even applicable? I know you were saying that any modern lens would cover plenty of movements.

Thank you all again, this is extremely helpful and I think I've learned more from reading your posts then in my weeks of research. Thanks!

Joe

k_jupiter · Jul 6, 2010

My suggestion is a 150 Fuji "W" lens. Will cover both 4x5 and 5x7 so there is no issue with swings, etc. Any 210 lens will do the trick also, just be more limiting in 4x5 visualization.

Contact me privately and I'll give you a good deal on a B&J "Grover" monorail 5x7 with both 5x7 and 4x5 backs. Or the same backs on a 5x7 B&J "Watson" wooden field camera. The monorail is in excellent shape, the field camera needs refinishing.

tim in san jose

Ian Grant · Jul 6, 2010

Joe, my Wista is a wooden field camera, it's been around the UK, Italy, Greece, Turkey where it is now and many other countries. Woods very stable once dried
It's also extremely portable and fun to use.

Last spring I worked with one of my monorail cameras in the landscape while back in the UK, it was OK, my Cambo's light but just not as portable and not as quick to set uo and use. End results are the same, as that's the lenses not the camera.

Beware US cameras with poor movements like small format Agfa Ansco's and BJ's etc, they are heavy & cumbersome,

Ian

k_jupiter · Jul 6, 2010

Ian Grant said:
Beware US cameras with poor movements like small format Agfa Ansco's and BJ's etc, they are heavy & cumbersome,

Ian

And cheap.

tim

Ian Grant · Jul 6, 2010

k_jupiter said:
And cheap.

tim

Yes they are very cheap, that reflects their downsides. That's weight and functionality. It doesn't mean I wouldn't buy and use one, rather it would never be my first choice - I have enough 5x4 cameras already to choose from

Ian

Joe O'Brien · Jul 6, 2010

Thanks for the quick response, I think I will probably end up going with a field camera based on your recommendation. Am I in higher danger of light leaks using a wooden camera than a metal one? I'm very concerned about a wasted exposure because in my style of shooting I tend to only be at a shooting location once (I get lost a lot )

Joe

Ian Grant · Jul 6, 2010

Wood or metal only time you get light leaks normally is the bellows and that's dependant on the age of the camera and bellows and who made the bellows.

In my posts I'm talking state of the art wooden field cameras, not down market old B&J's

Ian

Jeff Searust · Jul 6, 2010

my suggestion for a first timer buying a LF camera--- forget about the camera and forget about the lens-- worry about film holders. You will spend about what your camera costs in film holders. Wait for good deals, buy extra dark slides, buy a roll of cloth tape and learn to fix them.

For a camera, do look at some monorails--- Look at a Cambo or Toyo-Omega. Both are fairly newish and cheap

Joe O'Brien · Jul 6, 2010

Ian,

I know you had recommended a second hand Wista, I've seen the new ones going for over 1K, any idea on where to get a second hand one a little cheaper? Or would it be cheaper to buy a metal one? I'm really unsure of how much I need to spend to get a good introductory kit together...

Jeff,

Do all film holders work on all cameras? Or do I need to determine which system I'm going with first? What is a fair price for a film holder?

Thanks,

Joe

k_jupiter · Jul 6, 2010

Ian Grant said:
Yes they are very cheap, that reflects their downsides. That's weight and functionality. It doesn't mean I wouldn't buy and use one, rather it would never be my first choice - I have enough 5x4 cameras already to choose from

Ian

Ja. I spent 20 years dealing with old beater and Speed Graphics before I bought my 'final' Deardorff V-8. I enjoy using it more, that is for sure, but my photos... they all look just about the same from camera to camera. Make sure you are going to like the sport before investing huge amounts in a black box.

Spend the money on lens. A couple of Nikor mounted M lens, or a set of Wide, medium and long Fuji glasses....

That's the way to start running at high speed, not with a wizbang fancy new (or used) black box.

Just my opinion.

Forget I made the offer though.

tim in san jose (gittin down to one LF system)

removed account4 · Jul 6, 2010

hi joe

while you don't think you will shoot 5x7 in the immediate future
5x7 paper negatives are cheap as dirt to make
and a half a 5x7 negative is a landscape / panoramic 2.25x7.
it is easy to take a dark slide and cut it in half to mask the the other side of
your film and paper ( mark your ground glass as well ) so you can expose both
sides of the negative.
5x7 is a great format, some suggest that it is close enough to the golden mean
that everything looks nice when it is that format.

of course, your actual mileage may vary.

john

BrianShaw · Jul 6, 2010

You're getting a lot of good advise. Let me throw in a couple of pieces for you to consider:

1. Before you look beyond 4x5 (and this is no slur to the advise given by others to go bigger)... look at the film availablility.

2. Do as much homework as you need, then start modest and grow from there. There is a little girl who has a presence on this and other forums who dreams too big and gets nowhere, despite people giving her good advise and good equipment. Dreaming too big sometimes confounds good intention and stymies success. Find out what will likely work for you and give you the best chance of sucess.

I'm still using (40 years later) my "starter cameras": Cambo monorail and Speed Graphic. I like contact printing but have not been hampered by the "small" size of 4x5. Sure, I'd like bigger and rely on other techniques like digital negs when I need bigger negs.

There are a lot of opinions and every one has merit. But in the end there is only one suggestion to really consider: Do SOMETHING... anything LF will get you started!

Good luck and have fun.

Joe O'Brien · Jul 6, 2010

Jupiter,

Thanks for the advice on holding back, I am one who tends to throw themselves into something without really testing the water.

Jnanian,

Would that trick with the darkslide work as well on a 4x5 if I was okay with a 2x5 panorama?

Brian,

Thanks, I forgot that when I looked into film availibility I saw many more 4x5 options then anything else LF. I Broke into 6x6 by getting a cheap old TLR and trying that out for a while before I got a Bronica sq-a. If I wanted to do something similar and "dabble" in LF what would you suggest starting out with? After the TLR I've gotten pretty good at stoping up light leaks

Just for everyone who's been posting on this thread,

Thank you all, this is the best way I've found to get educated about LF. LF was a little beyond what my high school photo teacher knew about so I didn't really have any access to good information on LF

Joe

John R. · Jul 7, 2010

Give a 4x5 Pacemaker Speed Graphic a try. Lot's of bang for the buck. Get a very clean and well cared for one, be patient and look around, you will find a stellar example, they exist. Add a modern optic and you have a terrific tool. Use the standard optic and you have a very good tool.

Anscojohn · Jul 7, 2010

Joe,

Much good advice. I found, for my own uses, that my clean Agfa/Ansco 5x7 suits me just fine. My model has minimal movements BUT: it comes standard with a dual extension back so it can be used versatily with many lenses for closeups. As mentioned, 5x7 is almost ideal format. And I have a 4x5 reducing back and my Polaroid sheet film back fits, also. Plus a "split 5x7" portrait back which gives two 3 1/5 x 5s on a sheet of 5x7.
All told (not including lenses), it set me back less than 300 dollars.

John Kasaian · Jul 7, 2010

Just a thought, but how do you plan on printing? Will you scan or are you fond of the traditional wet dark room? With a 5x7 you can make nice sized contct prints without an enlarger---thats just something to consider.

You are interested in panoramas and there are several ways you can do this on a large format camera---a modified darkslide as john nanian mentioned, sliders which come with some camera backs, as well as sliding backs like Ansco John mentioned. Of course the cheapest involves a greased pencil and drawing a rectangle on your ground glass---just enlarge and crop to suit.

Film holders are pretty standardized. There are a few obsolete cameras which use proprietary holders (some ancient Linhofs and Folmer & Schwing models come to mind as well as a sorry design with no locking ridge from China labelled Tilt-all which is to avoided at all costs) but just about any camera you are likely to come across will accept Lisco/Graflex/Fidelity/Riteway and others.

drpsilver · Jul 7, 2010

06 July 2010

Yes, lots of good advice. I have a Fuji "W" 150mm and really like the lens. It is light, not the lightest, and sharp. I have also found that I use a 210mm more than I do the 150mm. Depends upon the type of photography you do.

I really like the Shen Hao 4x5. It has all the movements that I have ever wanted, with one or two exceptions in 7 years. The only downside of the camera is that you are effectively limited to 300mm of "bellows draw". This is not a problem unless you are using a very long focal length lens ore doing extreme close-up.

Hope this helps, and have fun!

Regards,
Darwin

Joe O'Brien · Jul 7, 2010

So how does a Speedgraphic with a fuji "w" 150mm lens sound to everyone? would the Speedgraphic come with a film back normally? or would it be better to go with a Shen Hao body? Which would be more cost effective/easier to come by?

Ian Grant · Jul 7, 2010

All post WWII LF cameras have a back with screen and take international Double dark Slides (DDS) except the odd Russian models

A Speed or Crown Graphic is extremely limiting as they have almost no movements, I wouldn't recommend one as a main or first 5x4 camera, however I do use one for hand-held work so can say that with experience.

5x4 is all about the ability to use movements to gain control, lenses have shallower DOF than their equivalents on 35mm or 120 cameras so tilts, swings etc are important particularly in landscape and architectural work.

Shen Hao's are relatively cheap and easy to find, look out on this forum and the LFPI as Wista's, Shen Hao's, Tahihara's etc often get listed at bargain prices, and there's always plenty of LF lenses.

Ian

Joe O'Brien · Jul 7, 2010

Many thanks, I will begin searching now!

Joe

k_jupiter · Jul 7, 2010

Joe O'Brien said:
So how does a Speedgraphic with a fuji "w" 150mm lens sound to everyone? would the Speedgraphic come with a film back normally? or would it be better to go with a Shen Hao body? Which would be more cost effective/easier to come by?

Sweet.

I used that combination (Speed G. with 150 Fujinon) for 18 years before I got my 5x7 B&J, and then my 8x10 Deardorff. Amazing photos. For landscape work, you just don't need all the movements usually afforded in a higher end camera. Packs up in a self contained box, gets thrown in a backpack with a half dozen film holders, a light meter, black cloth and throw the light/medium weight tripod across your shoulder. A nice package treks anywhere.

tim in san jose

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