LF lens vs maximum bellows extension; how close can you focus?

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Kino

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OK my 5x7 camera has approximately 360mm of total bellow extension from the middle of the front standard to the ground glass.

The bellows COULD extend more IF I had the back extension rail, which I do not have, so I am currently stuck with this length.

A 300mm lens would obviously focus on infinity; is there a formula or rule of thumb to determine how close I could focus with the remaining 60mm of bellow extension?

As a general rule, I'd like to be able to focus a lens to a minimum of about 10 feet, so how do you determine that based on focal length?

Sorry if this is basic stuff, but I tried Googling around and had no luck finding an answer.
 

Sharktooth

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You just use the standard lens formula

1/(lens focal length) = 1/(lens to subject distance) + 1/(Lens to ground glass distance)

for a 300mm lens, with a maximum bellows draw of 360mm, the minimum lens to subject distance is 1,800mm (1.8m or about 6 feet)
 

AnselMortensen

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Another option is a 300mm telephoto lens...less bellows draw, but more complicated bellows extension exposure compensation calculations.
 
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Kino

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You just use the standard lens formula

1/(lens focal length) = 1/(lens to subject distance) + 1/(Lens to ground glass distance)

for a 300mm lens, with a maximum bellows draw of 360mm, the minimum lens to subject distance is 1,800mm (1.8m or about 6 feet)
Excellent! That's very helpful for considering potential lenses in the future.


Another option is a 300mm telephoto lens...less bellows draw, but more complicated bellows extension exposure compensation calculations.

I seem to remember reading something about how a telephoto lens might have smaller coverage circle as well. This is where my carelessly calling all long focal length lenses "telephoto" is coming back to bite me in the butt.

Back to the basics for me.

After all these years delayed in getting started in Large Format, it's like starting photography all over again...
 

koraks

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I seem to remember reading something about how a telephoto lens might have smaller coverage circle as well.

Yes, that's correct. Take for instance the Fujinon T 300/8, which has a 213mm image circle. this means it will not quite cover 5x7". The 400T will barely cover the format with no (EBC coated version) or very little (single coated version) movements.

It's also easy to reason out, since the telephoto lens just sits closer to the ground glass. If you then draw a light cone behind it (towards the ground glass) with the angle of view of the lens, you see that this cone ends up being a far smaller circle than the non-tele lens of the same angle of view, because the latter sits much further away from the ground glass.

It's the same reason essentially why the coverage of a lens is much bigger when focused at close distance than at infinity. And this is also that the 300T f/8 may be perfectly adequate for a head & shoulders portrait on 5x7", as it will just cover the format.
 

Ian C

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You’d first have to know a bit more. What is the flange distance of the lens? That data can generally be found for large format lenses on the Internet. I label the flange distance Fg. When the bellows is fully extended on your camera, you need to know the distance from the front of the ground glass to the front surface of a lens board.

This can be safely measured by using a small diameter wooden dowel rod that can be bought cheaply from Home Depot, Lowes’s, or other hardware store. Fully extend the bellows with a lens board (no lens). Insert the dowel and carefully and gently push it until its end touches the front of the ground glass. Use a pencil to mark the dowel where it meets the front of the lens board. Remove the dowel and measure the distance. Designate it L.

Most standard lenses have a flange distance that is less than the focal length.

Wide-angle lenses usually have a flange distance that is greater than the focal length.

Telephoto lenses have a flange distance significantly shorter than the focal length.

Now we need to know Emax, the maximum extended distance of the second nodal point of the lens.

For a standard or telephoto lens, Emax = L + Fg.

For a wide-angle lens, Emax = L – Fg

Example 1:

I’ll use a 300/5.6 Nikkor W as an example of a standard LF lens and suppose that when the bellows on your camera is fully extended, the front of the lens board is 360 mm forward of the ground glass.

The relevant data for the Nikkor LF lenses can be found in the following PDF:

https://www.mr-alvandi.com/downloads/large-format/nikon-large-format-lenses.pdf

For this lens, Fg = 284.9 mm. The 2nd node is forward of the flange (front of lens board) by the distance

Δ = f – Fg = 300 mm - 284.9 mm = 15.1 mm

That means that with the bellows fully extended, the total distance from the image plane (and front of ground glass) to the 2nd node is L + Δ = L + 15.1 mm = 360 mm + 15.1 mm = 375.1 mm, so

Emax = 375.1 mm

Using the standard formula s = if/(i - f ) where i is the image distance and s is the subject distance measured from the image plane to the first nodal point of the lens, and replacing i with Emax, we get

s = Emax*f/(Emax – f)

Then s = (375.1 mm)(300 mm)/( 375.1 mm – 300 mm) = 1498 mm

Or about 1.5 meters (4.9 feet).

This is really the same as the answers given in the previous posts above. I chose a particular 300 mm lens for which I had specific data and I made some assumptions as stated to illustrate how you could go about taking the measurements and doing the calculation.

Example 2:

Now do this for a telephoto lens of about the same focal length capable of 5”x 7” coverage (at f/22). Recall, that telephoto lenses are generally used without movements due to their narrow angle of view and the fact that both nodal points usually fall forward of the front element.

I’ll chose the Nikkor-T ED 360mm f8 whose flange distance is Fg = 261 mm (so it will work on a camera with a maximum front-of-lens-board position of L = 360 mm from the ground glass).

The second node is Δ = f – Fg = 360 mm – 261 mm = 99 mm forward of the front of the lens board.

That gives

Emax = L + Δ = 360 mm + 99 mm = 459 mm

s = 459 mm(360 mm)/(459 mm – 360 mm) = 1669 mm

So, the closest subject distance with bellows fully extended is about 1.7 meters or 5.5 feet.
 
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Kino

Kino

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Thank you once again, Ian C!
 
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Using a top-hat lens board can get you a bit more extension. I use a 300mm lens on my Wista DXs, which only has 300mm bellows draw, with a top-hat board. The extra extension lets me focus down to nine feet.

Using front tilt forward and back tilt backward can get you more effective bellows draw too, but you need a second axis tilt on at least one standard to bring the standards back parallel, if that's what you need. A bit complicated, but doable in a pinch.

Doremus
 

MattKing

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Out of curiosity only, did anyone make a lens board similar to the lens mounts for LPL enlargers - used one way as a top-hat, or used the other way as a recessed board?
 

DREW WILEY

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Most teles don't close-focus well either, besides the limited image circle issue.
 

MTGseattle

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@MattKing Can the Technika IV and V lens boards not be mounted either way? I'm tempted to run downstairs and try it quick.
 

DREW WILEY

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Official Technika boards correctly fit one direction only. But you could have a custom-made threaded one which would accept a threaded barrel either direction. I have something like that available for one of my Durst enlargers.
 
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