Lets talk Pt/Pd papers

michael9793 · Dec 7, 2007

You are right I am comparing it to platinotype which is very white. i have not had a problem with my old Cot-320 but the new Cot-320 I bought for my 8x20 seems to not give me a good Dmax. the prints seem flat compared to the old paper. I may have to increase the amount of Na2 to hopfullyh bring it up. The Weston Parch. is very delicate and I use a piece of acrylic to support the paper when washing and transporting it to the drying screens. Prints seem okay, but I have had the surface bubble up on me, which when dried showed imperfections.

Monophoto · Dec 7, 2007

lallan said:
no Platine left on the shelf so I tried an old paper that I hadn't used in awhile, Stonehenge. Worked great - liked it better than Platine for this negative. Don't know why I move away from it.

Stonehenge is no longer being made. The Rising Mill was closed in June.

It may still be available in a few stores - found some in Jay's Stationery in Bennington, VT a few weeks ago. Also in Pearl in NYC back in May.

deisenlord · Dec 7, 2007

Anyone else have problems with good'ole black spots and Platine lately? The last batch I bought has been very bad, maybe 80+ of my prints have a spot or two. I've been looking for something in my process but I don't have the problem w/ Fabriano or Weston.
Ike

RobertP · Dec 7, 2007

The last time I used platinotype it was riddled with the black plague. I haven't used it in a couple of years now. So I don't know if there has been improvements made to this paper or if it is even being made anymore. I've never had any black spots on platine though.

blaze-on · Dec 7, 2007

Is the "COT" in the Bergger-Cot 320 by any chance be for Cotman (watercolor paper)?
There must be some history on this..

As Cotman Watercolor Paper, 140 lb. 11" x 15" sells for $21.19 (50 Pack), just wondering if anyone has knowledge on this.

I noticed the diploma also (last batch from B&S) has that stupid crease line..sometimes shows, sometimes not.

deisenlord · Dec 7, 2007

My last batch of weston from b&s was creased as well. I assume it was because of the small box they shipped it in, they basically rolled the paper half way up.
Ike

nick mulder · Dec 7, 2007

blaze-on said:
Is the "COT" in the Bergger-Cot 320 by any chance be for Cotman (watercolor paper)?
There must be some history on this..

Dont know where I am recalling this from but I think its COTton

michael9793 · Dec 8, 2007

from Arentz's book he says that the bergger Cot-320 is the paper they use to make their fiber base silver paper from. Speaking Cot-320 I has a problem with this paper yesterday. I was printing with it and the area of coating had a white speckling to it as though there was uncoated areas. it didn't show up till clearing accured. So I tried it with old Cot-320 and found that it wasn't on it. the edges had even tones, no speckle. is this from the ph and I have to treat it with acid or do I have to double coat or what?

thanks
mike

Vaughn · Dec 8, 2007

michael9793 said:
from Arentz's book he says that the bergger Cot-320 is the paper they use to make their fiber base silver paper from. Speaking Cot-320 I has a problem with this paper yesterday. I was printing with it and the area of coating had a white speckling to it as though there was uncoated areas. it didn't show up till clearing accured. So I tried it with old Cot-320 and found that it wasn't on it. the edges had even tones, no speckle. is this from the ph and I have to treat it with acid or do I have to double coat or what?

thanks
mike

Man oh man, I did noit want to hear that. Sounds like the same problem I had with the Fabriano Aristico...that the soaking in Oxalic acid did not cure. I just ordered some COT320 and it will be arriving on Monday...I don't want the same problem (again!)

My problem with the specks was not consistant, but I have not been able to figure out if anything in my methods could be the cause. I'll be printing mid-week, so I will let you know my results. I'll be using this procedure:

Pre-soak in 2% Oxalic acid (several minutes...until no more fizzing/bubbles)
Coat with rod (two to three passes), finish with brush -- pt/pd (1:2)
Usually no contrast agent...Na2 if needed
Potassium oxalate -- room temp
Clearing: 1st bath Citric acid, next two baths of Kodak HCA w/ EDTA added
Wash and air dry

Vaughn

rbergeman · Dec 8, 2007

to ike et.al--
i've experienced that crease in the weston paper as well (and i don't think it was from rolling up the paper by the shippers at b+s because it was shipped flat) .... when i mentioned it to b+s the other day, they seemed surprised to hear about it .... considering it seems to be pretty widespread, perhaps they need to be alerted by more than one of us

rich
ps-- vaughn, in my limited experience with cott320, i've found that presoaking is not necessary (tho it may help if you must coat with a rod) -- i tried the rod on my first cott320 w/out presoaking, and it didn't work at all; then had better luck after presoak, but eventually discovered (with b+s' advice) that using the brush on the paper right out of the box (w/out presoak) works just great

Kerik · Dec 8, 2007

Vaugn - I've seen the white spot problem with Fabriano. Try upping your oxalic concentration to 4%. Are you agitating and/or shuffling the sheets during the presoak? How long is "several minutes"? Try 10 or 15...

michael9793 · Dec 8, 2007

Vaugn,
I just was reading in Arentz's book that using 2% solution should be brushed on in some cases not soak in it. He indicated that only in certain situations do you soak the paper and no more than 2 mins. I have 20 20x24 sheets which cost me a arm and a leg. I will try tween, double coating and the 2% solution this week and let you know how it works. I ordered some aches platine from NY central Friday and it should be here the middle of the week. If it works good I'm to call and find out if it is from the same batch that they have in house and if so I'm going to order a large amount so to keep keep the printing consistent. It is like Azo, you would by in large quantities because any differences could be worked out and then you had enough for a while with that batch number.

Monophoto · Dec 8, 2007

One of the things that we need to remember is that Pt/Pd printing may not have been the primary market that the manufacturer of various papers designed their products to serve. As a consequence, there may be aspects to these papers that affect us as Pt/Pd printers, but that are of no consequence to the main users of the product.

An example could be the problem with Crane's 90# cover/Platinotype. I had understood the problem to be that when the shear used to cut the paper from rolls into sheets was modernized/cleaned, there was some fine powder left on the machine that found its way into the paper. Since this powder was steel, the iron content reacted with the chemicals used in Pt/Pd printing leaving minute black specks on the paper. But to a user who looks to that paper as stock for printing, for example, annual report covers, that problem is a non-issue.

Likewise, the fragility of Weston Diploma Parchment is a known issue among Pt/Pd printers - but the paper was designed and mainly intended for use by the US Government in printing military discharge certificates where the wet strength is irrelevant.

Bottom line - we are a very small community. We can and should make our concerns for quality paper be known to the manufacturers. But realistically, we have to understand that they may not always listen.

And on top of that, if we didn't have all these problems, there would be little need for APUG as an venue for sharing complaints. And most of us couldn't survive without this outlet!

Vaughn · Dec 8, 2007

Kerik said:
Vaugn - I've seen the white spot problem with Fabriano. Try upping your oxalic concentration to 4%. Are you agitating and/or shuffling the sheets during the presoak? How long is "several minutes"? Try 10 or 15...

Actually, the last batch I did was a 3% solution for 30 minutes, one sheet at a time until it stopped out-gassing, then I'd put in the next sheet -- contant shuffling. Still had the problem over half the time.

Vaughn

FredW · Dec 9, 2007

A paper I am having some really nice results, which I have not seen mentioned before is Arches Hot Pressed Watercolor. You can by it in a block (140lb), or sheets (90lb). I am getting very nice blacks, and glistening highlights. It has a slight cream color. I can by the 22x30 sheets locally for about $4.

I would like to try platine, but have been unable to source locally.

michael9793 · Dec 9, 2007

Louie,
that is nice to know, most books don't mention this. The Weston parch. was said to be the replacement for the platinotype. There is so much difference between the two that I think B&S should remove that information from the order sheet. I bought it on that bases and throw it all out.
I checked out mu Cot-320 prints I made this weekend and found that my old cot-320 was much smoother when dry than the new batch. this could be part of the problem.
I think sharing some of the different papers out there and problems are important to many of us who are about to purchase paper. If one is having problems with a paper form one source and not another will gives us the info to order form the proper location.
Fred
here is a local to puchase platine. I have checked prices and it is about as good as it gets. http://www.nycentralartsupply.com/europe.html

michael andersen

FredW · Jan 28, 2008

michael9793 said:
Louie,
that is nice to know, most books don't mention this. The Weston parch. was said to be the replacement for the platinotype. There is so much difference between the two that I think B&S should remove that information from the order sheet. I bought it on that bases and throw it all out.
I checked out mu Cot-320 prints I made this weekend and found that my old cot-320 was much smoother when dry than the new batch. this could be part of the problem.
I think sharing some of the different papers out there and problems are important to many of us who are about to purchase paper. If one is having problems with a paper form one source and not another will gives us the info to order form the proper location.
Fred
here is a local to puchase platine. I have checked prices and it is about as good as it gets. http://www.nycentralartsupply.com/europe.html

michael andersen

Thanks, Michael. I went to a local artist supply store, and inquired. They are going to bring some in for me to try.

nick mulder · Jan 29, 2008

michael9793 said:
Louie,
that is nice to know, most books don't mention this. The Weston parch. was said to be the replacement for the platinotype. There is so much difference between the two that I think B&S should remove that information from the order sheet. I bought it on that bases and throw it all out.

Send it my way!! - I'm getting brilliant results with it in Ziatype ... Not so much in traditional/NA2 though, results there are a bit sketchy.

I've noticed that I haven't done any DOP prints in the last month - all Zia - I think because the POP prints are much easier to gauge (and that much cheaper) - just as nice in their own way that is if you like the tone and texture of the Weston Parch compared to say the brighter and smoother COT320.

Seriously though, if you have any you'd like to pass on in 8x10 or larger, pref 11x14 (or near to as I think the sizes are different?) - You know who to contact

Katharine Thayer · Jan 29, 2008

There's almost nothing as useless as someone who knows nothing about a topic barging in, but Fred's comment that Arches watercolor paper works well for him emboldens me to ask whether anyone has tried the Arches bright white watercolor paper, my favorite paper for gum. I have no idea in the world how well the bright white would work for platinum, but if the traditional Arches works well for the purpose, in my experience the basic performance of the two papers (again, with gum not platinum) is similar. This paper (hot press) has a very smooth surface that keeps its smoothness through multiple soaks, has a thin crisp quality (compared to other watercolor papers) that makes for fast drying and prints faster than the Fabriano Artistico Extra White in my experience (for gum again). Just on a guess, it seems like it might be worth trying for platinum. If you're not finding a paper that works for you and are testing different papers, you might pick up a sheet of this and see how it works. Nothing to lose but $3 or so.

Afterword: I thought this paper, like the other Arches watercolor paper, came in 90# weight, but at least in the Daniel Smith catalog, the only weights are 300# and 140#. Don't know if that makes a difference.
Katharine

Jim Noel · Jan 29, 2008

Katherine,
Thanks for pitching in. Sometimes our best ideas come from outside the box. I will certainly try the Arches Bright White.
Jim

scootermm · Jan 29, 2008

Katharine... to directly answer your question. I have printed some 8x10 negatives as pt/pd prints on Arches Bright White 140# and 300#. Both papers had wonderful wet strength through out the processing. Both gave some weak pt/pd prints initially. But when I gave the 140# an acid prebath (similar to FA-EW needs in order for better pt/pd prints) it worked noticeably better. I opted not to bother with the 300# as it was such a thick paper and seemed to need more chems to coat it well.
I mainly tried it when I was testing out alot of papers and the local art store had it in big sheets. It was tested when I tried out Fabriano Artistico, Rising Stonehenge, Cranes, Arches (multiple versions), and Rives BFK. I equally liked the look of Rives BFK and Fabriano Artistico, but have opted for FAEW as I like the stability of it when Im pt/pd printing with the intention of eventually doing gum layers atop (up your alley).

Katharine Thayer · Jan 29, 2008

Interesting, thanks for instant feedback! Interesting that with platinum the bright white prints weaker than other papers without pre-treatment; not so for gum in my experience. Anyway, now I know, thanks.

I've never understood the recommendation from some gum printers to use 300# paper. To me it's like working with some kind of construction material rather than paper. Too thick and heavy and boardlike and takes forever to dry; 140# is plenty enough weight.

kt

Jeremy · Jan 29, 2008

scootermm said:
I equally liked the look of Rives BFK and Fabriano Artistico, but have opted for FAEW as I like the stability of it when Im pt/pd printing with the intention of eventually doing gum layers atop (up your alley).

Matt, have you tried Clay's method of working with Rives BFK (http://209.35.116.200/?p=17)? I find that I have to double-coat the FAEW to get a solid pd/pt print on it, though if I'm gumming it it's fine. The Rives BFK is working for me to get better straight pt/pd prints and I haven't had any problems with dimensional stability. The caveat is that I have only done 1 gum over layer on a 16x20 pt/pd on Rives so far, though.

scootermm · Jan 29, 2008

yeah actually I do quite enjoy the Rives BFK both with straight pt/pds and with the gum overs.
I have been using Clays comments/note as well and they were eternally helpful.

I do agree with you, in regards to straight pt/pd, I do quite love the Rives BFK as well jeremy.

Jeremy · Jan 29, 2008

Oh, and after talking to the Turnip (or is it The Turnip) and doing some web surfing, I found that Dick Blick has the BFK Rives to use for pt/pd in 26" x 40" for $2.88 if you buy at least 10 sheets (which is the minimum order anyway). Cutting this down to into 2x 20" x 26" it's only $1.44/sheet which is the best value I've found in pt/pd printing. http://www.dickblick.com/zz104/19/

Lets talk Pt/Pd papers

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