Lethal?

Per Rudeofus - Ciba bleach was con sulfuric. The amateur powder kits were sulfamic. That stuff would ruin your lungs fast, and it is almost
unimaginable that some people used it in opens trays. It will corrode metal drainpipe like crazy. I know a fellow who had to have a lung removed due to Ciba bleach fume scarring. A single serious incident can ruin your lungs for life. Ordinary hardware store muriatic acid is less concentrated hydrochloric, and people add it to swimming pools, yet it has ruined a lot of lungs of the naive, not to mention skin burns. Failing to read the hazard notice, or failing to dilute it way way down has taken people from perfectly healthy to downright lifetime invalid. I worked
with Ciba for years - in a drum processor outdoors! The bleach was easy to neutralize in small drum batches. I also process even RA4 outdoors in analogous fashion, but that's because I'm allergic to it. Even with thing of lower level toxicity, long-term sensitization can be a
distinct threat. Better safe than sorry. Even routine black and white silver printing warrants gloves and decent ventilation.

Yep... we all gotta die. I would just prefer not to die a few decades prematurely gasping for breath or shaking like a leaf, or connected to a dialysis machine, or going blind - like a number of macho artists I know who casually smeared their finger in lead and cadmium pigments, or worked around chromium dust, or applied nitrocellulose lacquers without a fume booth (the lucky ones in the latter instance went quickly, and simply blew up!)

Color Blixes are not very poisonous at all!

Cyanide, Mercury and they Hydroxides are the most lethal with many other surprises. Ancell and Troop (and Me too) rank Pyrogallol and Catchol as some of the most poisonous chemicals along with Selenium.

The book Overexposure is way over the top and just plain WRONG in many cases. For example, it lists EDTA as a poison, but it is used intravenously for heavy metal poisoning. In other words, it is a remedy for Mercury exposure.

BTW, drinking solutions of strong acids or bases will kill you, but it is the most painful and agonizing death imaginable.

I think that it is useful to order the toxicity of your chemistry, but remember that thousands of workers at EK have used these for years, and at worst, I believe there were a few cases of dermatitis. We wore proper protection, and the problems arose when we did not follow the rules.

As an added thought, Coke, Pepsi and other "colas" contain a hefty dose of Phosphoric Acid. That is the baddie in there that can hurt you in high doses. It is dilute in the colas, but remember the old time "Phosphates"? That is what they were. Sugar, Carbonation and Phosphoric Acid with a flavoring.

PE

DREW WILEY said:

Yep... we all gotta die. I would just prefer not to die a few decades prematurely gasping for breath or shaking like a leaf, or connected to a dialysis machine, or going blind - like a number of macho artists I know who casually smeared their finger in lead and cadmium pigments, or worked around chromium dust, or applied nitrocellulose lacquers without a fume booth (the lucky ones in the latter instance went quickly, and simply blew up!)

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Sounds like you should reconsider your choice of acquaintances!

Hexavalent said:

Mercuric chloride is far nastier than the uranium nitrate typically used for toning/intensification.

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.... and mercuric chloride also know as Calomel was taken internally and used as a laxative and disinfectant, as well as in the treatment of syphilis, until the early 20th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury(I)_chloride

methanol in lens cleaners, wikipedia states that as little as 30ml is lethal, with a median lethal does for adults at 100ml (4fl oz). Potential to go blind as well, which I think is the worst for photographers.

Prof_Pixel said:

.... and mercuric chloride also know as Calomel was taken internally and used as a laxative and disinfectant, as well as in the treatment of syphilis, until the early 20th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury(I)_chloride

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And I believe the presence of mercury was used to track down the camps (via their latrines) of the Lewis and Clark Expedition. It was used in a laxative they carried -- an almost pure meat diet plugged them up a bit.

There is still available a compound called "blue onitment" which basically just mercury metal dispersed into a blue-green paste along with petroleum jelly. From what I can tell (the label is in Spanish)it is used for fugal infections on the skin (and possibly other not so innocuous ones elsewhere). Since it is in metallic form the danger is less than if it were a more soluble form. I hope I would never have to use the stuff

rob

R Paul said:

There is still available a compound called "blue onitment" which basically just mercury metal dispersed into a blue-green paste along with petroleum jelly. From what I can tell (the label is in Spanish)it is used for fugal infections on the skin (and possibly other not so innocuous ones elsewhere). Since it is in metallic form the danger is less than if it were a more soluble form. I hope I would never have to use the stuff

rob

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Curiously elemental mercury is less poisonous than its compounds although the vapor is dangerous. The most dangerous compounds are the organomercury compounds such as methyl mercury. It is easily absorbed through the skin and a single drop results in a painful and lingering death.

Elemental Mercury has a hing vapor pressure and the fumes formed thereby are quite toxic.

PE

Prof_Pixel said:

.... and mercuric chloride also know as Calomel was taken internally and used as a laxative and disinfectant, as well as in the treatment of syphilis, until the early 20th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury(I)_chloride

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Calomel is mercurous chloride, Hg2 Cl2, and is relative benign but eventually harmful if you eat enough of it. Corrosive sublimate, alias mercuric chloride Hg Cl2, is spectacularly poisonous and definitely and quickly lethal in gram quantities. Amazingly both forms did have a long history in external and internal medicine.

It is wise to treat all chemicals with respect, not only in terms of our own use of them, but also whoever might stumble into a darkroom by accident, or might have to clean up after we are gone. So there are a few habits that one must cultivate if keeping harmful substances in reasonable quantities.

For starters, familiarise yourself with the hazards of each and every chemical you might use. Take no chances, at least not with the health and well-being of others.

Everything must be properly labeled. If one has to repackage something, make sure the label on the new packaging is correct and complete, also in terms of warnings etc.

When using chemicals, making liquid solutions etc, work in a fume cabinet, or outside as an alternative. Again, label all mixes properly, not only in terms of generic names, but also in detail of what they contain.

Apply the principle of ALARA: As Low As Reasonably Achievable. That is, limit your exposure to everything, even when it is fairly innocuous, and most certainly when it is not. In some cases, but not all, a cocktail of chemicals can cause cumulative toxicity that would be much less had one been exposed to only one of them. In addition, some chemicals are co-sensitising and/or additive in their effect. Chemicals that affect liver and/or kidney function will exacerbate the effects of other chemicals, as it will reduce the body's ability to excrete them.

As others have mentioned, certain chemicals have low acute toxicity but severe long term exposure risk. Others are acutely toxic, but if you survive the acute dose, you might be fine. Most chemicals are somewhere in the middle, i.e. they have both acute and long term effects. As I mentioned above, one must be extra careful of combined exposure, especially in the case where an acute toxin is ingested on top of a chronic exposure to something else.

One should always keep incompatible chemicals as far apart as is practical. Strong oxidisers such as permanganate and dichromate should be kept away from acids. Flammable materials should be kept away from everything else. A possible risk is that a fire might release other chemicals, adding a toxicity issue to a fire hazard, and one that persists even after the fire has been put out.

As a chemical engineering in a research environment, I have on occasions come across chemical waste that was poorly labeled with no history or indication as to what it might be. Let me tell you, there is nothing worse than dealing with this. The chemical analyses to characterise such waste are extremely onerous and expensive, not to mention time consuming. In addition, nobody wants to touch such stuff (as well they shouldn't), so it just sits there to everyone's annoyance. Nowadays people just get fired for not following waste regulations, but 30 years ago it was less strict. We should be mindful of our relatives who might have to clean out a darkroom after we expire. If you have the foresight to have a valid and recent will for those things others might want to inherit, then you should also consider what should happen to the stuff you leave behind that no-one would want (except a fellow analogue photographer). So merely relying on own memory of what is where is not good enough. In fact, more helpful even might be to have a list of persons to consult should the unthinkable happen to you.

oxalic acid isn't much fun ... turns yer bonz to jelly

so there's really nothing I could drink or eat in the photographic world that would have me dead before I hit the ground?

Stephen Frizza said:

so there's really nothing I could drink or eat in the photographic world that would have me dead before I hit the ground?

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Would you want to? (Since you write in the first person).

In reality, there are few such chemicals, period. Those are almost all neurotoxins, and no photographic chemicals fall into that category, AFAIK. Even cyanide causes several minutes of agony - the almost instant expiration you'll see in spy movies etc is nonsense.

There are photographic chemicals that are certainly toxic enough to be the bridge to the eternal, but the trip across in most cases will be long, bumpy and unpleasant.

ok i know this is going outside the perameters a little...Instead of ingestion, what would be most lethal to inject?

Stephen Frizza said:

ok i know this is going outside the pentameters a little...Instead of ingestion, what would be most lethal to inject?

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Are you alright? Did you just get diagnosed with a terminal illness and don't want to linger? Or...........?????? Are you looking for a new high? Or are you looking for away to get rid of somebody else? Not getting along with the wife maybe? Hate your boss? Trying to shake a mistress?
I saw guys when I was in the military (late 60's) that would ingest rat poison to get high. I ask one of them how much they took and they said a tablespoonful would do the trick. Never tried it and don't plan to either. Oh, I came into the barracks one night and about five of them were sitting in a circle using a syringe to shoot wine into their veins for a quicker buzz. Then we had the occasional glue sniffer too. I never did any of that insane stuff as I was straight and narrow. I only drank and smoke pot. Now I'm to old for that kind of stuff and my morning prune juice is my "new" buzz.

Stephen Frizza said:

ok i know this is going outside the pentameters a little...Instead of ingestion, what would be most lethal to inject?

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Is there something going on in your personal life? What is this sudden fascination with trying to off yourself? Or are you trying to off somebody else? :munch:

Stephen Frizza said:

ok i know this is going outside the pentameters a little...Instead of ingestion, what would be most lethal to inject?

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It would be incredibly painful, but if you want something lethal to inject, try air. A syringe full of just plain air, injected, will kill you.

Gotta be a decent sized syringe to cause an embolism though. People on drips regularly get about 1-2cc of air while the plumbing clears and it's harmless. Freaked me out (thought I was gonna die) but the nurse told me it'll be fine and I seem to still be here.

Stephen Frizza said:

ok i know this is going outside the pentameters a little...Instead of ingestion, what would be most lethal to inject?

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Okay Stephen, we all feel despondent about Provia 400X and Neopan 400 going away, but there are alternatives .

I think you will find your answer in veterinary medicine. It is not the sort of thing one should try on humans (except for a few states in the US that do, of course).

And just so you know: If we hear about some unfortunate bloke who was unwittingly injected with a lethal photographic substance, we are not necessarily going to keep quiet!

Michael R 1974 said:

Mostly the same story as ingestion. Most developing agents and other photographic compounds will kill you if the dose is sufficient. How fast depends on the compound and the dose. As Gerald pointed out earlier, the dose makes the poison.

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Eat enough tomatoes and they'll kill you too... or table salt, or even water. But other than neurotoxins or bullets, nothing is going to drop you where you stand. Even neurotoxins would have to be administered in a pretty high dose to kill you in seconds.

TheFlyingCamera said:

Eat enough tomatoes and they'll kill you too... or table salt, or even water. But other than neurotoxins or bullets, nothing is going to drop you where you stand. Even neurotoxins would have to be administered in a pretty high dose to kill you in seconds.

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One should add, the effort of trying to buy a neurotoxin might kill you before you have it to inject. Those things don't lie around on the open market (thankfully!). If you are a vet or anaesthetist, your chances might be slightly better, though.

You could, on the other hand, come visit me in South Africa, and I'll introduce you to a black mamba which would save you all the trouble.

Maris said:

Calomel is mercurous chloride, Hg2 Cl2, and is relative benign but eventually harmful if you eat enough of it.

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Good catch... my bad...

It is a fact that in all of photographic history, more photographers have been killed by photo-chemical poisoning that have been killed in a 100 square foot area in Detroit in 1 month.