Lenses similar to 47mm Super-Angulon?

jeff4 · May 28, 2006

First off, hope this question is ok in this section, rather than the MF. . . .

I have been considering getting a 47mm SA and was wondering what lenses would be similar in terms of coverage and image quality. It would be for 6x9 format. Before I start looking for one, I was curious as to whether better/similar alternatives are out there. Does anyone have experience w/ this lens? Perhaps something even wider? Anyway, just hoping to get some feedback regarding this lens as well as possible options that may be better.

Thanks very much,
Jeff

darinwc · May 29, 2006

There arent any cheaper alternatives to the 47mm sa.
The only other lenses that will cover the 6x9 format are generally more expensive.
58mm Grandagon (im not sure if rodenstock made anything wider, but if so they are extremely rare.
50mm mamiya press. Reputation of an excellent optik but I would not want to move such a fine lens out of its original mount.
38mm zeiss Biogon. Extremely expensive. Sometimes found in industrial cameras.. the quality of thes industrial surplus is questionable and the conversion to a standard mount can add an extra cost.
I think Dan Fromm will probably chime in here. He has some Leitz Elcan lenses, im not sure if any are similar wide angles.

MichaelBriggs · May 29, 2006

Current Rodenstock offerings include the 35, 45 and 55 mm Apo-Grandagons. The 35 mm is rated to cover 6x9, the 45 mm 6x12 and the 55 mm 9x12 / 45 inch. Rodenstock specs the 35 mm to have enough coverage to support shift/rise movements of 12 / 16 mm on 6x9. See http://www.linos.de/en/prod/apo-grandagon.html

Wider than 47 mm, Schneider has the 38 mm Super-Angulon XL. See http://www.schneideroptics.com/photography/large_format_lenses/super-angulon/

Roger Hicks · May 29, 2006

Dear Jeff,

My wife's standard lens on her Alpa 12 S/WA is a 35/5.6 Rodenstock Apo Grandagon and she loves it dearly. There is however an odd feature: she finds that with that particular lens/shutter she needs to give twice the exposure that we need with any other lens.

The 38/4.5 Biogon has a circle of coverage of only 80mm and is NOT suitable for 6x9 (diagonal 101mm). It's a gorgeous lens: it's my standard on my Alpa 12 WA but I use it with the Alpa-unique 44x66mm format, masked down from 6x7cm (and no movements).

We also have a 47XL SA (another great lens) and we sold our 47/5.6 non-XL because there didn't seem much point in having both. Even the non-XL will JUST cover 4x5 inch acceptably: Schneider's coverage figures are very conservative. The XL has much more coverage.

The 47/8 non-XL had a justified reputation for very variable quality so I'd avoid those unless you can find a Linhof-selected model.

Cheers,

Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com)

Claire Senft · May 29, 2006

If you can find one a 45mm Biogon. Very rare.

df cardwell · May 29, 2006

The common versions of the 47/5.6 & 47/8 SA (mounted in a 00 Compur shutter) which has become a liability. Even 20 years ago, it had become nearly impossible to service. It was a fragile shutter, and parts were unavailable.

Today, with fewer parts to scavenge and fewer technicians capable and willing to do the job - and fewer photographers willing to pay for the job - the 47 in #00 is it is best left alone.

The multicoated 47/5.6 version was mounted in a larger 0 shutter, which is fine.

The new wide angles in short focal length from Rodenstock and Schneider are SO good, I'd have a hard time justifying buying anything older.

Dan Fromm · May 29, 2006

47/8 Ilex, sold under a variety of names. I don't have one, do have a 65/8 Ilex and it is super. Ilex made this lens in three focal lengths, 47, 65, and 90. Designed and made in Rochester, very similar to the f/8 Super Angulon. Typically sells for less than the comparable SA.

As Darin mentioned, I have a 38/4.5 Biogon in Copal 0 and a 44/2.8 Elcan in barrel. My Biogon covers 84 mm with good illumination, has good sharpness out to 87 mm where everything cuts off sharply. The Elcan covers a little more with so-so sharpness and good illumination, cuts off cleanly at 90 mm. Neither is really for 6x9. The Elcan is in barrel and I don't see a sensible way to put it in shutter; I can use it because it makes infinity on a 2x3 Speed Graphic and I have one.

Roger, I shoot my 38 Biogon on 2x3 even though it doesn't cover. Why give up cropping opportunities? I mean, with an unvignetted 26 x 80 who needs an Xpan? I have it on good authority that Capaul & Weber consider me an ignorant barbarian, but I continue to find my humble Century Graphic more capable, also much less classy, than their very expensive and beautifully-made products. Yes, the 35/4.5 Apo Grandy will make infinity on a Century and covers 2x3. If I ever win the lottery I'll buy one. $1k for a used one puts it a little out of reach. Unattainable object of desire, I'm afraid.

Claire, one of my neighbors bought a 45 Biogon last year. Paid around $1,800 and was delighted to have got it for so little, said he'd expected it would go much, much higher. He's a Zeiss collector, tells me that 100 45 Biogons were made. Also that it was made to cover 6x7. AFAIK he hasn't shot with it yet. Another unattainable object of desire, I fear. The Biogon for 6x9 is the 53.

Original poster, what's your budget?

Roger Hicks · May 29, 2006

Dear Dan,

Absolutely! My only point was that the 38 Biogon won't cover the whole format.

Cheers,

Roger

jeff4 · May 29, 2006

Thanks very much to all for the advice/info.

Dan, Regarding your inquiry as to budget--- I wanted to get an idea of what was out there, before determining a figure. It seems that of the lenses mentioned, the 47 SA is at the low-end (as far as cost). I will probably keep an eye on things, for a while, to see what a realistic price-range is and go from there.

Thanks again for the input,
Jeff

Dan Fromm · May 29, 2006

The Ilex is as good, is usually less expensive. Also less common.

The newer "super" lenses, 35/4.5 Apo Grandagon excepted, are somewhat overkill because they have more coverage than you're likely to need on 2x3. But if you ever want to move up in format, ... And in the end, its your money you'll be spending.

Claire Senft · May 29, 2006

I am certain the 53mm 4.5 Biogon and 53mm 4.0 Super Angulon are both quite nice. I would think if one had their heart set on a 45mm Biogon that 4 times $1800 would be reasonable..if they could scrape $7,200 together.

I only chose the 45mm Biogon as an example because it is the lens that came to mind as being the closest to a 47mm Super Angulon, Although no closer than a Rodenstock A.G. I am not about to turn my nose up at the offerings of other manufacturers.

darinwc · May 29, 2006

I was not aware that Ilex made a 47mm lens. It would not surprise me though. I have never seen one for sale one ebay or other vendors, but then ive never seen any of the other exotics mentioned here either.

jimgalli · May 30, 2006

When you consider what a Biogon costs, re-mounting a Mamiya Universal 50mm f6.3 might not be such a bad idea afterall. It is a japanese Biogon copy and the quality is superb. It is also the only reason my complete Universal system has not been sold. In days gone by we did a lot of lunar exposures with that camera and Velvia. What I loved about the biogon was it is as sharp as it will ever be corner to corner at f8. Everything from 6 feet away to infinity is focused. I have some 20X30's on permanent display made with that lens and Velvia 50. Quite a lens. But at todays prices you may as well get the old Universal body that it went with and just make a dedicated wide angle 6X9 camera. The Mamiya Univeral S shaped roll film holders are also often praised as the best 120 holders ever made as far as film flatness was concerned.

Emile de Leon · May 31, 2006

Don't over look a good 47mm f8 SA. I've got one in my Brooks veriwide 6x10 and it is sharp and not bad in the flare dept either. Right now I'm looking at a 24" B&W hanging on the wall of a beach scene w/sun in pic taken with this camera and every thing is crystal clear with good tonality. The veriwide is my mini 12x20, hardly bigger than a Leica but with a 6x10 neg.
Emile/www.deleon-ulf.com.

medform-norm · May 31, 2006

Claire Senft said:
If you can find one a 45mm Biogon. Very rare.

I might know one for sale, but it'll cost you. A friend bought one two weeks ago on an auction. Price was near 3K. This might not be along your line of thinking.

Roger Hicks · May 31, 2006

Dear Emile,

Good 47/8 is the key word. This was one of the most variable of all lenses. I knew one buyer whose rejection rate once hit 11 out of 12. This is, needless to say, unheard of among other Schneider lenses then, never mind today.

Cheers,

Roger

Abbazz · May 31, 2006

In the good ole times of the interchangeable lens Fuji G690, there used to be a very nice f/5.6 50mm Fujinon, which IMHO was even better than the Mamiya f/6.3 50mm. This lens is quite rare nowadays (so it can be pricey), but it is definetly worth the effort. It comes mounted on a Seiko 0 shutter, so it should be possible to adapt it easily for LF.

jack lindsey · Mar 1, 2008

Mamiya Press/Universal 50mm

jeff4 said:
First off, hope this question is ok in this section, rather than the MF. . . .

I have been considering getting a 47mm SA and was wondering what lenses would be similar in terms of coverage and image quality. It would be for 6x9 format. Before I start looking for one, I was curious as to whether better/similar alternatives are out there. Does anyone have experience w/ this lens? Perhaps something even wider? Anyway, just hoping to get some feedback regarding this lens as well as possible options that may be better.

Thanks very much,
Jeff

The Mamiya Press/Universal 50mm lens has a circle of coverage of about 120mm. In a "6X12"==actually a 106mm wide negative==you get a (measured) 93 degree wide shot. [[Expanded a 6X9 (86mm wide) to the above size.]]

Sample photo: "Salmon Creek Falls" at www.XtremeDigitalPhotography.com
This prints to 36" wide at 300DPI !!!

Lenses similar to 47mm Super-Angulon?

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