Lens Identification Help

aconbere · Aug 2, 2024

Hi all,

This lens came with a packard shutter I bought this week. It’s a barrel lens with few markings. Just the ISCO makers mark that identifies it as an early Schneider and the fstops.

It is roughly 300mm with a minimum aperture of 6.8 and maximum of 64.

I believe it is 6 elements in two groups with both the front and back having one cemented and one air gapped element (two large reflections and one small one).

I believe the most likely candidate is that this is a 300mm/6.8 Symmar but I would love to know if anyone has more information!

randyB · Aug 2, 2024

It reminds me of a Dagor or one of the copies of the Dagor style lenses. It should work quite well for portraits on 4x5 or 5x7 film.

aconbere · Aug 2, 2024

randyB said:
It reminds me of a Dagor or one of the copies of the Dagor style lenses. It should work quite well for portraits on 4x5 or 5x7 film.

Totally, the early Schneider Symmar’s were Dagor clones and it would hypothetically give this lens coverage for 8x10, but I’m having a hard time measuring the image circle.

aconbere · Aug 3, 2024

Ack! I didn’t think about the lens reflections / design correctly. Two strong reflections, one weak should translate to two cemented elements (air-glass, glass-glass, air-glass).

What’s interesting is that’s the same on both the front and the back and I don’t know very many 4 element two group lens designs like that. If it were the common tessar I’d expect one of the groups to have two air glass boundaries. Maybe an aplanat / rapid rectilinear?

lobitar · Aug 3, 2024

The ISCO (for Iosef Schneider Co.) was the budget part of Schneider. I don't think they would bring out a 6-lens formula in these early years, especially in a 'cheap' mount without engravings. Hence my bid would be on a RR-lens. (Incidentally - if you take the trouble to check the real aperture, that might perhaps turn out to be more like f.8?)

aconbere · Aug 3, 2024

@lobitar any chance that these cells were transplanted into an ISCO barrel? I really can’t find many examples of ISCO making an RR lens.

Check my math, but f6.8 on 300mm should be about 44mm. There’s zero chance this aperture is that wide. My calipers don’t reach the aperture, but the whole barrel is only a touch over 44. f8 seems far more realistic at 37.5.

Any suggestions on making more progress? I’ll probably take a swing at taking some pictures with it. It came with a graflex mount but it’s at the very limit of my crown graphic’s bed.

JPD · Aug 3, 2024

Early Schneider made an Universal Aplanat RUBIAR, but it's fully marked Jos. Schneider & Co Kreuznach (with a probable four digit serial number on the back) https://www.ebay.com/itm/225935002424

ISCO was founded in 1936, but at least some plus and minus attachments for decreasing and increasing the focal lenght of plate camera lenses (Verkürzungslinsen and Verlängerungslinsen) where made by Schneider at least a decade before that, marked Jsco. https://fk-secondhand.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/079891_jsco_verlaengerungslinse_250475_01.jpg

The RUBIAR aplanat lens has the old style aperture scale, but your lens has the modern scale. I have never seen JSCO in a triangle as a logo before.

A prewar Japanese camera, Semi-Prince (1934-39) has a "Schneider-Jsco" lens https://img.aucfree.com/k427515071.1.jpg

The newly founded ISCO made lenses for aerial cameras, but these lenses have the name Schneider-Göttingen, and during the war they would have had an identification code instead of the maker's name. And after the war the name would have been ISCO-Göttingen, with an 'I' instead of 'J'.

Makes me wonder if this was special order lenses where it wasn't needed to engrave the focal lenght or serial number. Maybe for a process camera for export? Might not have anything to do with the company ISCO in Göttingen, since Schneider had used "Jcso" before.

I would contact Schneider Kreuznach to see if they know more.

JPD · Aug 3, 2024

lobitar said:
The ISCO (for Iosef Schneider Co.) was the budget part of Schneider. I don't think they would bring out a 6-lens formula in these early years, especially in a 'cheap' mount without engravings. Hence my bid would be on a RR-lens. (Incidentally - if you take the trouble to check the real aperture, that might perhaps turn out to be more like f.8?)

Schneider-Göttingen/ISCO didn't become a budget brand until they started to use plastic and sold their lenses at a lower price in the 1960s, when they made lots of lenses for small format cameras, a little like the good but cheap Japanese lenses that flooded the market in the 1980s. Dr. Albrecht Tronnier, who designed many of Schneider's famous lenses, worked for ISCO. ISCO made fast Xenon lenses for aerial photography in focal lenghts up to 500mm for the German Ministry of Aviation.

aconbere · Aug 3, 2024

JPD said:
Early Schneider made an Universal Aplanat RUBIAR, but it's fully marked Jos. Schneider & Co Kreuznach (with a probable four digit serial number on the back) https://www.ebay.com/itm/225935002424

ISCO was founded in 1936, but at least some plus and minus attachments for decreasing and increasing the focal lenght of plate camera lenses (Verkürzungslinsen and Verlängerungslinsen) where made by Schneider at least a decade before that, marked Jsco. https://fk-secondhand.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/079891_jsco_verlaengerungslinse_250475_01.jpg

The RUBIAR aplanat lens has the old stule aperture scale, but your lens has the modern scale. I have never seen JSCO in a triangle as a logo before.

A prewar Japanese camera, Semi-Prince (1934-39) has a "Schneider-Jsco" lens https://img.aucfree.com/k427515071.1.jpg

The newly founded ISCO made lenses for aerial cameras, but these lenses have the name Schneider-Göttingen, and during the war they would have had an identification code instead of the maker's name. And after the war the name would have been ISCO-Göttingen, with an 'I' instead of 'J'.

Makes me wonder if this was special order lenses where it wasn't needed to engrave the focal lenght or serial number. Maybe for a process camera for export? Might not have anything to do with the company ISCO in Göttingen, since Schneider had used "Jcso" before.

I would contact Schneider Kreuznach to see if they know more. I got help from them before, regarding the five element 2,8/50 Xenar that for marketing reasons was called Xenon on some cameras (it was better than the four element 2,8 Xenar, so it made sense too)

This is an awesome compilation of research. Thank you!

I reached out to Schneider yesterday. Hopefully they have some info for me.

I’ll hopefully have a minute to take some pictures tomorrow and will post results too

JPD · Aug 3, 2024

aconbere said:
This is an awesome compilation of research. Thank you!

I reached out to Schneider yesterday. Hopefully they have some info for me.

I’ll hopefully have a minute to take some pictures tomorrow and will post results too

This mid-1920s barrel 24cm Symmar looks like yours, but a little smaller and with full markings: https://www.ebay.com/itm/276504886859

I think your assumptions that it is a 300mm Symmar is correct. Makes one wonder if it had a special use, or if it was parallel imported and couldn't have the normal engravings for legal reasons...

aconbere · Aug 3, 2024

little fun while searching, found an example of the “jsco” mark in a triangle.

aconbere · Aug 3, 2024

JPD said:
This mid-1920s barrel 24cm Symmar looks like yours, but a little smaller and with full markings: https://www.ebay.com/itm/276504886859

I think your assumptions that it is a 300mm Symmar is correct. Makes one wonder if it had a special use, or if it was parallel imported and couldn't have the normal engravings for legal reasons...

This lens is damn near identical

Schneider "Coated" 30cm f6.8 Doppel Anastigmat Symmar Barrel Lens #1001873 | eBay

The aperture will then start at F13 instead of F6.8.

www.ebay.com

But as you said, the lack of markings makes me wonder. Also the missing reflection makes me feel like this is more likely an aplanat.

JPD · Aug 4, 2024

aconbere said:
little fun while searching, found an example of the “jsco” mark in a triangle.

Good find! It's the Jos. Schneider &Co early logo probably.

aconbere said:
But as you said, the lack of markings makes me wonder. Also the missing reflection makes me feel like this is more likely an aplanat.

But 6.8 is too fast for an aplanat. If it is an aplanat in a barrel with wrong aperture markings, why would the owner paint the same numbers (for visibility) instead of correcting them? I'm looking at a Dagor and can see two big and one small reflection, same with a Zeiss Doppel-Amatar. Were they trying to cheat us with aplanats? Looking at a Rietzschel Linear I see two large and three small reflections, as I'm supposed to. I think one of the Dagor/Symmar reflections is trying to hide... Maybe it's the reflection from the back, more curved part of the second element, that is more difficult to see. The lens elements of the Rietzschel Linear have less curvature, so that may explain why all the reflections are easier to see.

This is a Schneider Universal Aplanat Rubiar 7.7/300 https://www.ebay.com/itm/225935002424 Polished brass and old style aperture markings. The diameter of the lens elements look smaller, but the barrel could of course be larger than yours.

aconbere · Aug 4, 2024

JPD said:
Good find! It's the Jos. Schneider &Co early logo probably.

But 6.8 is too fast for an aplanat. If it is an aplanat in a barrel with wrong aperture markings, why would the owner paint the same numbers (for visibility) instead of correcting them? I'm looking at a Dagor and can see two big and one small reflection, same with a Zeiss Doppel-Amatar. Were they trying to cheat us with aplanats? Looking at a Rietzschel Linear I see two large and three small reflections, as I'm supposed to. I think one of the Dagor/Symmar reflections is trying to hide... Maybe it's the reflection from the back, more curved part of the second element, that is more difficult to see. The lens elements of the Rietzschel Linear have less curvature, so that may explain why all the reflections are easier to see.

This is a Schneider Universal Aplanat Rubiar 7.7/300 https://www.ebay.com/itm/225935002424 Polished brass and old style aperture markings. The diameter of the lens elements look smaller, but the barrel could of course be larger than yours.

Crap, I didn’t even think about how the painted stops confirmed the aperture.

Okay… so this seems crazy to me. But it’s late.

So I flipped the front cell over, and upside down I see 4 reflections. Maybe from the front the 2nd dim reflection is hiding.

Picture of 2 dim reflections from the back.

JPD · Aug 4, 2024

aconbere said:
Crap, I didn’t even think about how the painted stops confirmed the aperture.

Okay… so this seems crazy to me. But it’s late.

So I flipped the front cell over, and upside down I see 4 reflections. Maybe from the front the 2nd dim reflection is hiding.

Picture of 2 dim reflections from the back.

It is a Symmar then! I'll try the same with my Amatar here. Yes,the missing reflection can be seen when looking at the back of the lens group. It's just a bit shy.

aconbere · Aug 4, 2024

JPD said:
It is a Symmar then! I'll try the same with my Amatar here. Yes,the missing reflection can be seen when looking at the back of the lens group. It's just a bit shy.

Magical! Thanks for going on that journey with me. Excited to go take some pictures

JPD · Aug 4, 2024

aconbere said:
Magical! Thanks for going on that journey with me. Excited to go take some pictures

Have fun! Since it is a Dagor type if might have a slight focus shift when stopping down, so it's safest to recheck the focus. It might also have the famous "Dagor glow" at large apertures, that disappears at f:11 and smaller.

lobitar · Aug 4, 2024

Sorry, but I still don't think it is anything but a RR, have 2 more reasons: The rather cheaply made inside ring of the front cell; and the curvature of the outside of the lens groups seem slightly to flat to be a Double Anastigmat. And of course the missing engravings are still suspicious. But why not try out the lens - it might be a joy to work with, especially if you don't expect modern wide angle coverage?

Ian Grant · Aug 4, 2024

I regularly use a 12" (300mm) f6.8 Dagor, this is not a clone, like @lobitar I suspect it's an RR.

Ian

lobitar · Aug 4, 2024

JPD said:
Schneider-Göttingen/ISCO didn't become a budget brand until they started to use plastic and sold their lenses at a lower price in the 1960s, when they made lots of lenses for small format cameras, a little like the good but cheap Japanese lenses that flooded the market in the 1980s. Dr. Albrecht Tronnier, who designed many of Schneider's famous lenses, worked for ISCO. ISCO made fast Xenon lenses for aerial photography in focal lenghts up to 500mm for the German Ministry of Aviation.

@JPD: I stand corrected on the history of Isco, thank you! Admittedly I'm not that much of a lens historian, so thank you for your elucidations.
(Indicentally I've just had to discard another 90mm Linear. The rear lens had a appos 2 og 3 mm ground patch right in the middle, which turned our to make the lens completely useless on f.22: Everything just went dark. Perhaps a digital worker could use the lens on full aperture, which looked ok on the focusing screen?)

JPD · Aug 4, 2024

lobitar said:
Sorry, but I still don't think it is anything but a RR, have 2 more reasons: The rather cheaply made inside ring of the front cell; and the curvature of the outside of the lens groups seem slightly to flat to be a Double Anastigmat. And of course the missing engravings are still suspicious. But why not try out the lens - it might be a joy to work with, especially if you don't expect modern wide angle coverage?

The thickness of the lens group would be another clue. 6.8 would be very fast for an aplanat. Not unheard of, but rare. And he found four reflections.

JPD said:
Schneider-Göttingen/ISCO didn't become a budget brand until they started to use plastic and sold their lenses at a lower price in the 1960s, when they made lots of lenses for small format cameras, a little like the good but cheap Japanese lenses that flooded the market in the 1980s. Dr. Albrecht Tronnier, who designed many of Schneider's famous lenses, worked for ISCO. ISCO made fast Xenon lenses for aerial photography in focal lenghts up to 500mm for the German Ministry of Aviation.

@JPD: I stand corrected on the history of Isco, thank you! Admittedly I'm not that much of a lens historian, so thank you for your elucidations.
(Indicentally I've just had to discard another 90mm Linear. The rear lens had a appos 2 og 3 mm ground patch right in the middle, which turned our to make the lens completely useless on f.22: Everything just went dark. Perhaps a digital worker could use the lens on full aperture, which looked ok on the focusing screen?)

It seems difficult to find good Linears. When they don't have balsam problems then they have heavily scratched or the sellers want too much for them. I think having a good 120mm Linear is enough for me. It's not the best lens ever made, but it's an unusual design and fun to own.

aconbere · Aug 4, 2024

lobitar said:
Sorry, but I still don't think it is anything but a RR, have 2 more reasons: The rather cheaply made inside ring of the front cell; and the curvature of the outside of the lens groups seem slightly to flat to be a Double Anastigmat. And of course the missing engravings are still suspicious. But why not try out the lens - it might be a joy to work with, especially if you don't expect modern wide angle coverage?

Oh the lens is gonna get used! I’m just curious.

Ian Grant · Aug 5, 2024

The rear cell of my 12" Dagor, an early Symmar would be similar, so nothing like the lens in question here.

Faster than f8 RR lenses were made by a few companies, f4.5, f5.5, f6.8m so it's definitely worth trying the lens. Many excellent images were made with RR lenses.

Ian

JPD · Aug 5, 2024

Ian Grant said:
View attachment 375534

The rear cell of my 12" Dagor, an early Symmar would be similar, so nothing like the lens in question here.

Faster than f8 RR lenses were made by a few companies, f4.5, f5.5, f6.8m so it's definitely worth trying the lens. Many excellent images were made with RR lenses.

Ian

Yours look indeed thicker. But is it perspective?

Now there's a Doppel-Anastigmat Jsconar on Ebay. Who will buy it and let us guess if it's a Celor-type dialyt or a double-Gauss?

SCHNEIDER-KREUZNACH Doppel Anastigmat JSconar 27cm f/6,8 - SNr: 161669 | eBay

Schneider-Kreuznach Doppel Anastigmat JSconar 27cm f/6,8. SNr: 161669. Jos. Schneider & Co Kreuznach Doppel Anastigmat Jsconar. Lens made by Schneider Kreuznach. Objektiv von Schneider Kreuznach. Gebraucht-Ankauf Wir kaufen Ihre Gebrauchtgeräte an.

www.ebay.com

aconbere · Aug 12, 2024

Been a bit busy thought I’d report back.

My rear cell is indeed much thinner. (picture attached).

I also had a chance to shoot with the lens. Pretty tricky to use with my crown graphic, it barely focuses at infinity at full bellows extension so just a little bit of room to focus.

Image is a little soft wide open but not unpleasantly so. Good contrast. And bonus, the shutter worked!

Lens Identification Help

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Schneider "Coated" 30cm f6.8 Doppel Anastigmat Symmar Barrel Lens #1001873 | eBay

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SCHNEIDER-KREUZNACH Doppel Anastigmat JSconar 27cm f/6,8 - SNr: 161669 | eBay

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