lens advice!

tnewell

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Hi everyone,

I shoot with a Mamiya 645pro and have recently got into studio portraits. Up until now I have been shooting individuals with an 80mm and find that works great for what im looking for. However, im wondering if anyone can recommend a good wide lens? I want to start shooting groups of people in the style of Richard Avedon (here's an example of the style I like)

I have heard the 45mm might be a good bet? What do you guys think?
 

MattKing

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Avedon had lots of light available, and lots of space available too!
The look of a portrait is mainly created by light and camera to subject distance. The latter determines perspective - the relationship between elements at different distances from the camera.
It is difficult to use a lens as wide as a 45mm (on 645) for portraits without inducing apparent distortion. The subjects (and their features) that are closest to the camera end up being relatively larger in the frame than those farther away.
There are some tricks for dealing with that - e.g. in the example posted Avedon has Warhol and the subject at the far left closer to the camera than the subjects in the middle - but only you can decide whether the relatively exaggerated depth arising from the camera to subject distance mandated by a 45mm lens suits your vision.
The "traditional" rules for portraits would recommend against using that short a camera to subject distance.
My 45mm and 55mm N lenses for the 645 Pro are both excellent performers. I have used the 55mm lens for casual photos of groups of people, and been happy with the results.
 
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tnewell

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thankyou for this! I appricate the insight. It looks like im going for the 55, as it seems to achieve the results i'd want as a lower price than the 45.
 

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There are problems with distortion when using wide lenses too, so that that would put me off from using them for people shots. Not something to be concerned about at most distances, but if you wanted to get closer it would probably become obvious.

I remember seeing an Avedon exhibit many years ago when it traveled to S.F. The prints were huge, and as Matt said, you could see he was using tons of flash. Great photographer, he understood lighting, composition and his subjects very, very well. A TLR works a little better for MF group shots.....they handle well, and everyone smiles when they see one.
 
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tnewell

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Interesting! yes he was a master of studio lighting thats for sure. I know he used a Rollei and i do love the photos they create--- unfortunately i cant seem to find one thats affordable at the moment...Im trying to get by one what i have , i just don't think my 80mm 2.8 lens will cut it for a group of 6 people without it being far away? ah decisions.
 

MattKing

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Well, if Avedon had been using a non-wide Rollieflex, he would have got a square image that is the same on the long dimension as you would get with your 80mm lens .
Based on the borders though, I'm guessing that in the example you posted, he was using 4 x 5.
 

ic-racer

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The Avedon image is on 8x10 film. I don't know the lens but of course it is a rectilinear lens with no distortion. A modern lens, something like the Nikkor 150 Superwide, would give similar results, though I don't think that lens was available at the time.
In fact, if you look at the original tryptic, he has to point the camera downward, to me this indicates he is using a superwide lens with not much coverage for large movements but enough coverage to eliminate any vignetting at the corners. Maybe something like a 165mm Super Angulon.
 
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tnewell

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Matt yes thats a good point about the 80mm.
also, I might try and get the mamiya c330 - seems to be more readily available then the rollei and more in my price range. Any suggestions on lens's for that? I have not used a twin lens camera before but excited to try. I fee like all my favourite photographers used one.
 

cjbecker

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As I recall, Avadon used mostly 8x10 with a 360mm lens, a rolleiflex and the 80, or a hasselblad and a 150.

so i would assume that was shot with a 8x10 and a 360mm, which is just slightly longer then normal lens.
 

RalphLambrecht

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45mm looks about right for this type of shot!
 

MattKing

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Well....
I've owned a C330 since the mid 1970s, and still do.
I've owned a 645 Super or Pro since ~ 2005 and still own the Pro.
At one time I used the C330 with up to 4 lenses (55mm, 65mm, 80mm and 135mm), had a backup C220 body, lots of accessories including a prism finder and paramender included Mamiya tripod and used all of that for weddings.
I added the 645 system for a number of reasons, including the rectangular aspect ratio and interchangeable film backs.
My Mamiya TLR system is now somewhat downsized - my original C330, 65mm and 135mm lenses and most of the accessories.
The 645 system is down to a single Pro body, plus 45mm, 55mm, 80mm macro, 110mm and 210mm lenses, plus waist level and AE prism finders, left hand trigger grip and a few backs and other accessories.
One of the reasons I added the 645 system is that I prefer the 55mm lens in that system to the 55mm lens for the TLRs - not because of image quality, but because its maximum aperture makes for easier composing and focusing.
My slimmed down C330 system is very capable, and gives me very nice square negatives that I like to darkroom print, and very nice square slides I like to project. The 65mm is a nice lens for groups of people, and the 135mm is a wonderful lens for individual portraits. And both lenses are wonderfully useful for lots of other things.
The 80mm lens I used to have for the TLR gave me lots of fine results, and if I was limited to one lens, I would have trouble choosing between it and the 65mm.
The relatively wide selection of lenses I have for the 645 Pro means that system gives me great flexibility.
If you want to experience TLRs, I am a great fan of the C330, and would never recommend against it. It certainly is larger and heavier though than a Rollieflex or a YashicaMat or ...
 

btaylor

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I don't see this example as looking particularly wide. Try using your 80mm and back up. This shot nicely sums up what the energy must have been like at "The Factory." Pretty out there!
 

btaylor

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+1 on the Mamiya 330 system. Great lenses, versatile and quiet! Still a bargain. Rollei's are awesome (so elegant, sophisticated), but for my money they don't make better pictures than a 330 (I've used and enjoyed both).
 

Pieter12

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I don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but your biggest problem with distortion if everyone is in the same plane (as the Avedon example) is going to be the people at the edges of the frame will be stretched. You can, of course, correct this in photoshop or something like DXO, but if your intention is to print analog you will end up with noticeable distortion along the edges with a 45mm lens.
 

MattKing

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The C330 lenses aren't as "dreamy" as you might think:



It looks more impressive as an 11 x 14 print.
And yes, it is cropped from the square.
 

MattKing

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And here is one that uses the whole negative - from the same roll.
 

ic-racer

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That series is a little of an enigma considering the rest of his work done with the 360 and 300 lenses.

The 330 system should do anything you want.
 

removed account4

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cjbecker said:
As I recall, Avadon used mostly 8x10 with a 360mm lens, a rolleiflex and the 80, or a hasselblad and a 150.

so i would assume that was shot with a 8x10 and a 360mm, which is just slightly longer then normal lens.
Click to expand...
+1
btaylor said:
I don't see this example as looking particularly wide. Try using your 80mm and back up. This shot nicely sums up what the energy must have been like at "The Factory." Pretty out there!
Click to expand...

+1
 

MattKing

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I probably should have posted that the C330 lenses aren't necessarily as dreamy as you might think.
I took your comment to indicate that the lenses offered less contrast and were prone to flare.
So I posted two examples which would have evidenced that tendency, if the flare behavior was problematic.
FWIW, those examples were made with a blue dot 65mm lens.
 
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