Leica with Leaf Shutter

AgX · Aug 29, 2022

Here we see Ernst Haas sporting on a gunstock seemingly a Leica on "B" with Elmar 135 F4 and front-mounted leaf shutter.

http://t3.gstatic.com/licensed-image?q=tbn:ANd9GcRgGx-aaxKFwISkx3GYZc-InGVCVSNCwHYV82IofqD87QYulEi1USrJYXqmy0NYmT6_

Why would one use in such no-flash, event-photography a leaf shutter when one already got a focal plane one?

(Though it would be a nice makeshift solution for really silent portrait photography with a 35mm FP SLR, which might become another tinkerer project for me.)

awty · Aug 29, 2022

Less vibration when using a long lens.

awty · Aug 29, 2022

The photographer liked long exposures using bulb with a long lens. Much easier to hand hold using a cable release.
Very hard to keep a camera still hand held using the button on the camera.

AgX · Aug 30, 2022

You both seem to refer to the gunstock, which is not my point and to which I only referred to describe the situation. (Typically a gunstock is used at far away subjects [thouh I myself use it for close-by too], at which a flash is not very effective.)

And I do not see a flash.

Instead I interpreted
-) the short release cable with arrest-disc as means to arrest the focal plane shutter at "B"
-) the long cable as cable-release connecting a trigger at the gunstock with the leaf-shutter release.

But maybe some shutter specialist can discern between a PC-cord and cable-release based on the connector location at that shutter... But if it is a cable release, how then is that leaf-shutter actuated...? Which I saw as a proof of my idea.

Thus, if there is no flash involved indeed, why use a leaf shutter at such event/location?

awty · Aug 30, 2022

AgX said:
Instead I interpreted
-) the short release cable with arrest-disc as means to arrest the focal plane shutter at "B"
-) the long cable as cable-release connecting a trigger at the gunstock with the leaf-shutter release.

The first part is how I see it to.
The second, leaf shutter is set to bulb and is opened and closed by the trigger on the gunstock. Squeeze the trigger and leaf shutter opens, let go of trigger and it closed, or he just sets the shutter speed to what he wants.
He often uses motion blur in his photography.
Interesting technique, might rig something to try the same.

AgX · Aug 30, 2022

But what advantage does this set up yields to your mind in this very case?
(You too assume no flash is used and obviously there is no shutter-sound issue either at that location.)

Don_ih · Aug 30, 2022

A leaf shutter on the end of the lens could be used for multiple exposures.

AgX · Aug 30, 2022

Good idea, I did not think of this.
(Likely as I assumed so far that all cameras yield such feature by uncoupling the sprocket wheel as in rewinding.)

Don_ih · Aug 30, 2022

Also, the "bulb" setting on a Leica keeps the shutter open until you wind it shut - which requires you to put your hand over the lens or you'll mess up your shot. A leaf shutter closes upon release (B) or upon another press of the shutter (T).

Ian Grant · Aug 30, 2022

It's a 135mm f4 Elmar from around 1960-65 on an M3. At first glance the cable release on the camera appears not to be the locking type, however it must be.

It's not a Luc or Prontor shutter or early Dial set Copur, as the controls would be showing, however I do have two unnamed front mounting single speed leaf shutter with wheel controls for I, B, & T on their side.

Don Heisz said:
Also, the "bulb" setting on a Leica keeps the shutter open until you wind it shut - which requires you to put your hand over the lens or you'll mess up your shot. A leaf shutter closes upon release (B) or upon another press of the shutter (T).

The B setting on Leica cameras (like all cameras) keeps the shutter open while the shutter button is depressed, it closes when you release it. In this case you would need a locking cable release. There's no flash and these shutters are usually around 1/3o to 1/50 so no advantage with flash synch top speed anyway.

The rifle stock indicates hand held use, not what you would use for multiple exposures, the leaf shutter is quieter than the M3 Leica's FP shutter. My gut feeling this is a wildlife photographer, or someone wanting to shoot without being noticed, he is in a crowd of people.

Ian

Don_ih · Aug 30, 2022

Ian Grant said:
The B setting on Leica cameras (like all cameras) keeps the shutter open while the shutter button is depressed, it closes when you release it. In this case you would need a locking cable release. There's no flash and these shutters are usually around 1/3o to 1/50 so no advantage with flash synch top speed anyway.

There is no "B" setting on a Barnack Leica. So, that's III, IIIa, IIIb. Of course, that camera could be a IIIc, IIIf, or IIIg - I don't know. There is only "Z" (time) on a Barnack Leica, and you have to close the shutter by winding.

Ian Grant said:
The rifle stock... someone wanting to shoot without being noticed

I think the rifle stock would be more noticeable in a crowd of people than the incredibly quiet sound of a Leica shutter.

miha · Aug 30, 2022

Maybe Haas wanted to avoid focal plane shutter distortion

Jacques Henri Lartigue and his camera

Jacques Henri Lartigue was an extraordinary photographer. He was a recreatonal photographer and did not have to earn his money with photography, being born in a wealthy family. At a tender age he produced good photographs, which he continued to do until he died. His photographs were often...

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bdial · Aug 30, 2022

miha said:
Maybe Haas wanted to avoid focal plane shutter distortion

That's my thought.

Maybe the gunstock's cable wouldn't fit the camera.

Several of his "motion" photos have a double exposure look. Perhaps it's a self-cocking shutter in front that can be tripped multiple times quickly.

Classic Color Motion | Ernst Haas

ernst-haas.com

AgX · Aug 30, 2022

bdial said:
Perhaps it's a self-cocking shutter in front that can be tripped multiple times quickly.

A appealing explanation.

brbo · Aug 30, 2022

Ian Grant said:
It's a 135mm f4 Elmar from around 1960-65 on an M3. At first glance the cable release on the camera appears not to be the locking type, however it must be.

It is. The cable release connected to the camera in the picture is of a locking type. I have one just like that.

miha · Aug 30, 2022

What worries me more than the shutter type is his choice of the strap!!

Ian Grant · Aug 30, 2022

Don Heisz said:
There is no "B" setting on a Barnack Leica. So, that's III, IIIa, IIIb. Of course, that camera could be a IIIc, IIIf, or IIIg - I don't know. There is only "Z" (time) on a Barnack Leica, and you have to close the shutter by winding.

I think the rifle stock would be more noticeable in a crowd of people than the incredibly quiet sound of a Leica shutter.

It's an M series Leica, there's no slow speed dial on the front, plus you can see a light reflection on the straight edge of the hinged back. I was referring to all M Series Leica cameras having B.

bdial is right, I'd overlooked the photographer was Ernst Haas, and the front mounted shutters are self cocking so could be fired in rapid succession. It's the only way Haas could do multiple exposures with a Leica.

Ian

brbo · Aug 30, 2022

Ian Grant said:
It's the only way Haas could do multiple exposures with a Leica.

Not the only way with an M3, but the fastest and most precise way to do it, yes.

Don_ih · Aug 30, 2022

Ian Grant said:
It's an M series Leica

Oh, look at that - it is. I guess he traded in his first Leica (bought in 1949) fairly rapidly (when was this photo taken? He doesn't look more than 40-45.).

Anyway. It still makes most sense to do this if you want multiple exposures. I can't see any other good reason.

Ian Grant · Aug 30, 2022

Don Heisz said:
Oh, look at that - it is. I guess he traded in his first Leica (bought in 1949) fairly rapidly (when was this photo taken? He doesn't look more than 40-45.).

Anyway. It still makes most sense to do this if you want multiple exposures. I can't see any other good reason.

Well that particular lens was introduced in 1960, and Haast was born in 1921. So that's the right timescale

Now the rifle mount makes sense, if sprung loaded he could fire off multiple exposures quickly. But there are shots using the same multi exposure technique where the camera, or the whole setup is tripod based.

Ian

AgX · Aug 30, 2022

Thank you Don and Bdial, for setting me on that track.

The depicted leaf shutter by its details indeed can be the old version of the Prontor Press shutter with its small dial at the top.

flavio81 · Sep 2, 2022

AgX said:
Here we see Ernst Haas sporting on a gunstock seemingly a Leica on "B" with Elmar 135 F4 and front-mounted leaf shutter.

http://t3.gstatic.com/licensed-image?q=tbn:ANd9GcRgGx-aaxKFwISkx3GYZc-InGVCVSNCwHYV82IofqD87QYulEi1USrJYXqmy0NYmT6_

Why would one use in such no-flash, event-photography a leaf shutter when one already got a focal plane one?

(Though it would be a nice makeshift solution for really silent portrait photography with a 35mm FP SLR, which might become another tinkerer project for me.)

I have seen something like that on a Leica accesories catalog.

There was something like a "single exposure leica", which allowed you to create an exposure on a single frame, it did not use 135 film.

Since the camera had no shutter, a required accessory was a frontal leaf shutter, which was also listed on the catalog.

AgX · Sep 2, 2022

Yes, the Leitz OLEYO:

https://www.clean-cameras.ch/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/clean-cameras-Leica-OLEYO-Einzelbild-Kamera-02.jpg

__Brian · Sep 3, 2022

Don Heisz said:
There is no "B" setting on a Barnack Leica. So, that's III, IIIa, IIIb. Of course, that camera could be a IIIc, IIIf, or IIIg - I don't know. There is only "Z" (time) on a Barnack Leica, and you have to close the shutter by winding.

I think the rifle stock would be more noticeable in a crowd of people than the incredibly quiet sound of a Leica shutter.

The IIIa has a T setting on the slow speed dial. Setting the Shutter Speed to Z and the slow-speed dial to T will hold the shutter open until wound.

Setting the Shutter Speed dial to Z and the slow speed dial to any other setting: The shutter closes when the Button is released. I just tested this on my IIIa that I did a CLA on the slow-speed escapement.

Don_ih · Sep 3, 2022

__Brian said:
Setting the Shutter Speed dial to Z and the slow speed dial to any other setting: The shutter closes when the Button is released. I just tested this on my IIIa that I did a CLA on the slow-speed escapement.

Now that you mention it, I recall that's how it works.

Leica with Leaf Shutter

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