Leica Serial Numbers / Sherry Krauter

matthewm · Feb 11, 2021

I am on the hunt for a Leica M6 Classic and I spoke with Sherry Krauter earlier in the week to see if maybe she had one for sale (she didn’t). While chatting, she told me that I should look for an M6 with a serial number at least 174,XXX but not higher than 2,000,000.

She said that by the 2M mark, Leica had started “bean counting” (she reiterated this many times over) and that the cameras likely had many corners cut and would likely be unreliable.

In my research, I’m not finding any evidence to corroborate her speculation. Is this something I should be concerned about? Many of the posts I’ve read are contradictory to this, insinuating a later SN might even be better because bugs had been worked out, electronics were newer, etc.

Open to your thoughts here if you folks have any.

Best,
Matthew

Don_ih · Feb 11, 2021

I think I'd have to assume Sherry Krauter knows what she's talking about in this instance, although what you say makes sense. But she is well-known as an excellent Leica technician. Her experience certainly weighs more than most opinions.

BradS · Feb 11, 2021

I'd take it with a grain of salt. This exemplifies the kind of obsessing over minutia that gives Leica fanatics a bad smell. The company may very well have made changes over the extent of the product life, and at least some those changes undoubtedly were cost driven - this does NOT imply that they made the product less reliable. In fact, companies often make changes to improve quality and reliability (because this also saves them money!). I very much doubt that there is any significant performance differences between the various revisions. Furthermore, the M6 has been around for a long time now...the oldest are over 35 years old. At this point, the variance between individuals will be much larger than the variance between revisions.

I have an M6, serial number 165xxxx, from the very first batch of 2000 units, ca. 1984. It is 36 years old. It has been serviced once and has had one repair (both relatively recently). It works perfectly.

film_man · Feb 11, 2021

You are looking at cameras that are anything from 20-40 years old. Any issues will have shown up by now and repaired.

film_man · Feb 11, 2021

BradS said:
.the oldest are over 35 years old. At this point, the variance between individuals will be much larger than the variance between revisions.

That.

Huss · Feb 11, 2021

Check out the classifieds on fredmiranda.com
For some reason there are a lot of Leica M6 for sale.

Condition matters much more than age.

p.s. Leica already was bean counting with the introduction of the M6. All corners that could be cut had been with its release.
But it is still a very nice camera. Be prepared to experience rangefinder flare with it. It is very real and I found it most annoying. Leica did not correct this until the release of the MP, and later models of the M7.
Some owners have retrofitted their M6 with the pieces from the MP that prevent flare.

Danner · Feb 11, 2021

BradS said:
I have an M6, serial number 165xxxx, from the very first batch of 2000 units, ca. 1984. It is 36 years old. It has been serviced once and has had one repair. It works perfectly.

I have an M6 classic from the third batch, which was serialized on May 8, 1986 (or was it 1985?). Anyway, it's never been serviced and runs perfectly, even the low shutter speeds.

matthewm · Feb 11, 2021

Thanks for your help folks. I’m 37 (just had a birthday) and I’ve wanted an M6 since I was freshman in college. I never had the means to afford one and I picked a tough time to finally have the means as I assume they’re peaking in value at this point maybe. But I’m going to get myself one here soon.

Just wanted to make sure there wasn’t something I should be on the lookout for. Sherry didn’t have any particular reason for that serial range, just that she said they were past the problems but before the corners got cut. Shrug... she seemed very pleasantly grumpy when I talked to her. I’d love to take her for a beer.

logan2z · Feb 11, 2021

Do you need an internal meter and all of the frame lines in the M6? If not, you can save quite a bit of money and get a very nice M4. You'll have the 35/50/90/135 frame lines (you can use an external finder for 28mm) and you won't have any electronics in the camera to worry about. The M4 was also produced before Leica started incorporating cost-cutting measures into its film cameras.

matthewm · Feb 12, 2021

logan2z said:
Do you need an internal meter and all of the frame lines in the M6? If not, you can save quite a bit of money and get a very nice M4. You'll have the 35/50/90/135 frame lines (you can use an external finder for 28mm) and you won't have any electronics in the camera to worry about. The M4 was also produced before Leica started incorporating cost-cutting measures into its film cameras.

I don’t need the frame lines (I’m a 35mm shooter) but really love the idea of a meter. And I picked the M6 for nostalgia but also because if the meter fails or batteries die, the mechanics still work and I can use it sans-meter. Or with a handheld meter.

I chase around a 4 y/o daughter and a meter in the camera makes that one less thing I have to do.

film_man · Feb 12, 2021

Yup, wish my M4 had a meter but the M6 was out of my price range at the time. Now I'm kind of emotionally attached to my M4 so the only solution is to buy a second body which is out of my price range. Or I could just sell all my Nikon stuff and get a brand new MP. Hmmmm...there's an idea.

wjlapier · Feb 12, 2021

I wouldn't say "Sherry said" but I would confirm with Don Goldberg what she told you if you must know.

I've talked to Sherry several times and we've had some good discussion on Leica's especially the M7 ( don't get her started ).

matthewm · Feb 12, 2021

wjlapier said:
I wouldn't say "Sherry said" but I would confirm with Don Goldberg what she told you if you must know.

I've talked to Sherry several times and we've had some good discussion on Leica's especially the M7 ( don't get her started ).

Sherry basically told me I was wasting my time with the M6 and to go with an M5 if I wanted to spend my money wisely. I briefly mentioned the M7 and, as an alternative, the Zeiss Ikon ZM RF which is said to have a better VF than the Leica and that really got her going. LOL! She's a trip. We had a great conversation and I enjoyed it a lot. Not sure I believe 100% what she says as she seems to be extremely opinionated, but I guess after working on Leicas since before the Cold War, she's earned a little right to be pretentious.

Pieter12 · Feb 12, 2021

Sherry is a real M5 enthusiast. It is a fine camera, very well-made and performs superbly. Downside is there are a few issues unique to the camera (rangefinder window light leak, battery compartment--that I am aware of) not many spare parts and only a few technicians who will work on the M5. Sherry is one, obviously.

Steve Bellayr · Feb 12, 2021

Early M6s below a certain number had issues with the meter and needed to be upgraded. I have an early M6 and when I purchased it from a reliable dealer he provided me with the repair invoice. On later models I did have issues with an M6ttl 0.85 which needed repair..I am not sure about the later above 2 numbers bu the M6 that I sent for repair did have a number over 2. I am not a repair person but that has been my experience.

logan2z · Feb 12, 2021

matthewm said:
I don’t need the frame lines (I’m a 35mm shooter) but really love the idea of a meter. And I picked the M6 for nostalgia but also because if the meter fails or batteries die, the mechanics still work and I can use it sans-meter. Or with a handheld meter.

I get the desire for a built-in meter. I have two unmetered Leica M bodies so I've become used to carrying a handheld meter, but I do sometimes shoot with a Nikon FM and find the meter convenient - although I tend to double check it with a handheld meter anyway, force of habit

Huss · Feb 12, 2021

Pieter12 said:
Sherry is a real M5 enthusiast. It is a fine camera, very well-made and performs superbly. Downside is there are a few issues unique to the camera (rangefinder window light leak, battery compartment--that I am aware of) not many spare parts and only a few technicians who will work on the M5. Sherry is one, obviously.

Sherry messed up my M5.
DAG had to fix it.
I'll leave it at that.

Not sure what her beef would be with the M7, but it is not one someone who takes photos instead of navel gazing would care about.
The M7 is the best Leica shooter if you are just concerned about capturing the image in the most expedient way. AE with exposure lock does that for you.
And switching it to manual allows it to perform just like an M6 or MP.

I have a bunch of Ms, including M3, 4-2, 5, A, P and 7. And the reality is the 7 is the quickest and most accurate one to use.

Steve York · Feb 13, 2021

Huss said:
Sherry messed up my M5.
DAG had to fix it.
I'll leave it at that.

Not sure what her beef would be with the M7, but it is not one someone who takes photos instead of navel gazing would care about.
The M7 is the best Leica shooter if you are just concerned about capturing the image in the most expedient way. AE with exposure lock does that for you.
And switching it to manual allows it to perform just like an M6 or MP.

I have a bunch of Ms, including M3, 4-2, 5, A, P and 7. And the reality is the 7 is the quickest and most accurate one to use.

Sherry fixed up a couple M5's for me and they worked fine until I sold them. As I understand it, she purchased many off the M5 spare parts from Leica USA. What did she get wrong on your M5? Ha, ha, I have my negative DAG story too, but he's well known and does quality work.

Steve York · Feb 13, 2021

matthewm said:
I am on the hunt for a Leica M6 Classic and I spoke with Sherry Krauter earlier in the week to see if maybe she had one for sale (she didn’t). While chatting, she told me that I should look for an M6 with a serial number at least 174,XXX but not higher than 2,000,000.

She said that by the 2M mark, Leica had started “bean counting” (she reiterated this many times over) and that the cameras likely had many corners cut and would likely be unreliable.

In my research, I’m not finding any evidence to corroborate her speculation. Is this something I should be concerned about? Many of the posts I’ve read are contradictory to this, insinuating a later SN might even be better because bugs had been worked out, electronics were newer, etc.

Open to your thoughts here if you folks have any.

Best,
Matthew

She definitely has her opinions about different models. This is from memory; any M4, M3 after 958xxx (or something like that), any lever rewind M2, M5 after 134xxx, and the best Leicaflex is the SL. Usually what she says is based on fact, there's broad consensus among the repair techs on some of it, but it doesn't mean if you get a DS M3 it will blow up in your hand. Most people don't shoot enough films to run into issues with these old Leicas, which ever one they get.

Over the last several decades I've owned and used an M3 SS, M2, M4, M5, M6 (both types), MP and M7. My fav is the M2 and is the only one I currently possess. Shoot w/o a meter and you'll love it. In board meters slow you down. I would stay away from anything after an M5, because of the inaccuracy of the frame lines at typical shooting distances, Just me though.

Steve York · Feb 13, 2021

Huss said:
Sherry messed up my M5.
DAG had to fix it.
I'll leave it at that.

Not sure what her beef would be with the M7, but it is not one someone who takes photos instead of navel gazing would care about.
The M7 is the best Leica shooter if you are just concerned about capturing the image in the most expedient way. AE with exposure lock does that for you.
And switching it to manual allows it to perform just like an M6 or MP.

I have a bunch of Ms, including M3, 4-2, 5, A, P and 7. And the reality is the 7 is the quickest and most accurate one to use.

Ha, ha, hated the M7, although shot a boat load of Kodachrome through it during that last year Dwayen's developed the stuff. People are different. I don't find modern M's accurate because of frame lines issues at my shooting distances. A bit of hyperbole maybe, but older M's are more accurate in that regard. Fast though with a nice rangefinder.

Huss · Feb 14, 2021

Steve York said:
Sherry fixed up a couple M5's for me and they worked fine until I sold them. As I understand it, she purchased many off the M5 spare parts from Leica USA. What did she get wrong on your M5? Ha, ha, I have my negative DAG story too, but he's well known and does quality work.

Sent her my M5 for service. Got it back with the RF condenser missing so it now flared like crazy.
When I politely asked her what the deal was, she became extremely defensive and then unresponsive.
Sent it to DAG who replaced the missing condenser.
He also recalibrated the light meter to run on 1.5v cells, something that I paid Sherry to do. But apparently she 'forgot' to.

matthewm · Feb 14, 2021

Huss said:
Sent her my M5 for service. Got it back with the RF condenser missing so it now flared like crazy.
When I politely asked her what the deal was, she became extremely defensive and then unresponsive.
Sent it to DAG who replaced the missing condenser.
He also recalibrated the light meter to run on 1.5v cells, something that I paid Sherry to do. But apparently she 'forgot' to.

Ive seen a couple of reports similar to this online regarding her work. It seems maybe at one time Sherry was among the best, if not the best. Perhaps she’s past her prime.

I’m sure she’s a wealth of knowledge. Maybe time to pass the torch to an apprentice.

madNbad · Feb 14, 2021

When Leica moved the factory from Wetzlar to Solms in late 1986, the next batch of M6 are known as the "big M6" cameras. For a short time the cameras carried only M6 engraved on the right side of the camera. After a short run the traditional Leica above the M6 returned.

Steve York · Feb 15, 2021

Huss said:
Sent her my M5 for service. Got it back with the RF condenser missing so it now flared like crazy.
When I politely asked her what the deal was, she became extremely defensive and then unresponsive.
Sent it to DAG who replaced the missing condenser.
He also recalibrated the light meter to run on 1.5v cells, something that I paid Sherry to do. But apparently she 'forgot' to.

Ouch!! Used her for a lot of work, 10-15 years ago. She did 2-3 repairs on M5's, triple that for the original Leicaflex, SL and SL2. Damn I sent her a lot of business!! Not cheap either, but she was supposed to be the expert on these cameras. No issues. Shot the hell out of a couple of those SL's, but the other cameras hit the used market after a year or so. Certainly see if from your perspective though. SMH

craigclu · Feb 15, 2021

I recall that she was dealing with some serious health issues.... She discouraged me from some Leica repairs over the years that turned out to be good advice in the long run. I get a kick out of her but she has a bit of an "edge" to her that I wrote off as east coast vs my midwest "nice" approach. Anyone know of her health situation?

Leica Serial Numbers / Sherry Krauter

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