Leica R4 and the whole R system

Rol_Lei Nut · Jan 30, 2012

Kisatchie said:
Nikon vs. Leicaflex R... hmm.

One of my SL2s had a battery compartment that wouldn't stop corroding over. Take the battery out, put in a new one, and 2 weeks later, more corrosion. Sent it to Leitz for 5 weeks to get it fixed.
My second SL2 jammed within a month of getting it (all my equipment was purchased new). Came back still jammed. Another 5 weeks at Leitz! It also tended to have the shutter speed dial loosen up on occasion.
I had an R3 that had its self-timer lever fall off. I was standing in shin-high grass, and I felt something hit the top of my boot. It was a miracle, I'm sure, that I looked down and saw the self timer lying on top of my boot.
I had another R3 that had the glass (you looked through to see the film cannister inside) fall off.
Those cameras were the most sensitive, fragile cameras I ever used, and I've gone through a lot (no thanks to my bi-polar disorder). You couldn't give me Leica R equipment (well, you could, but I'd sell it immediately)

Now for the lenses. I had a brand new 60mm Macro elmarit-R squeal like a freight train's wheels whenever I tried to focus it. Had to be relubricated.
The 21mm super-angulon R had a shade that fell apart in my hands when I went to remove it. Super glue fixed that.
I also had a 90mm f/2.0 R lens that I dropped about 2 inches onto a glass counter top. Every time I went to change filters, the entire front of the lens would unscrew with it. I wound up supergluing the front on.
Oh yeah, I had several R lenses have their black finish start flaking off. It must have been my sweat, because I lived in New Orleans and it's hot in summers (none of my Pentax, Canon, and Nikon lenses ever blistered). One of the lenses was replaced under warranty because the blistering was so bad.

I figure I must have had about 50 Nikkor lenses since 1979. Out of all of them, I had one lens replaced... it was a 50mm f/2.8 Micro-Nikkor that had the finish inside the lens flaking off (I only had the lens a couple of days, so none of my "corrosive" sweat ever got inside.

I hope this helps someone decide which system to use.

I could also post all kinds of anecdotal evidence of which my most-failed cameras were (want to guess?), how a Leica has never failed me, how I dropped a Tele-Elmarit 90mm from waist height onto concrete (wrote off the lens shade, no other damage) and how 2 lenses and one meter of some brand were all returned to the Mfg. 3 times before working properly.

Anecdotal evidence is, well... anecdotal.

tony lockerbie · Jan 30, 2012

I still have a couple of SL's, can't imagine anything would fall off them....beautifully made.

Rol_Lei Nut · Jan 30, 2012

Kisatchie said:
Nikon vs. Leicaflex R... hmm.

One of my SL2s had a battery compartment that wouldn't stop corroding over. Take the battery out, put in a new one, and 2 weeks later, more corrosion. Sent it to Leitz for 5 weeks to get it fixed.
My second SL2 jammed within a month of getting it (all my equipment was purchased new). Came back still jammed. Another 5 weeks at Leitz! It also tended to have the shutter speed dial loosen up on occasion.
I had an R3 that had its self-timer lever fall off. I was standing in shin-high grass, and I felt something hit the top of my boot. It was a miracle, I'm sure, that I looked down and saw the self timer lying on top of my boot.
I had another R3 that had the glass (you looked through to see the film cannister inside) fall off.
Those cameras were the most sensitive, fragile cameras I ever used, and I've gone through a lot (no thanks to my bi-polar disorder). You couldn't give me Leica R equipment (well, you could, but I'd sell it immediately)

Now for the lenses. I had a brand new 60mm Macro elmarit-R squeal like a freight train's wheels whenever I tried to focus it. Had to be relubricated.
The 21mm super-angulon R had a shade that fell apart in my hands when I went to remove it. Super glue fixed that.
I also had a 90mm f/2.0 R lens that I dropped about 2 inches onto a glass counter top. Every time I went to change filters, the entire front of the lens would unscrew with it. I wound up supergluing the front on.
Oh yeah, I had several R lenses have their black finish start flaking off. It must have been my sweat, because I lived in New Orleans and it's hot in summers (none of my Pentax, Canon, and Nikon lenses ever blistered). One of the lenses was replaced under warranty because the blistering was so bad.

I decided to take a closer look at this post.....

1) Leaking (& corroding) batteries are usually not the camera's fault, but generally poor quality batteries. Could be caused by a short or even possibly by the meter always being left on. Camera's fault? Unlikely...
2) Jamming & loose shutter speed dial. Possible. Was it really sent to Leitz in Germany or some other "authorized" repair facility?
3) Lost self timer. Possible. I don't have an R3 to see how it's attached.
4) Lost film reminder window. Possible, though a sharp knock often helps...
5) 60mm that sounded like a freight train. New?(!!) Any lens of any brand that's been used on a beach as child's toy will sound like that.
6) 21mm lens shade. That lens shade has some set screws which hold it together and allow finely setting its orientation. Time & vibration (esp. in a vehcle or plane) can loosen screws. Super-glue??!!?? Definitely overkill!
7) Loose front lens ring. While possibly caused by a knock, more usually vibration is the cause. Easily tightened using a piece of rubber. Happens to all brands.
8) Black finish flaking. Makes me wonder about local environmental conditions (more the chemical than the climatic variety) or the user's diet...

So many loosening screws & rings & jams, apart from extreme bad luck or a jinx, could really be due to vibration: camera left in a glove compartment/floor of a car, in an airplane baggage rack without enough cushioning, in a motorcycle trunk ect..
IMHO, there also seems to be a certain degree of mechanical insensitivity or awareness on the part of the user.

About sensationalistic posts: a few days ago I had a look at the "junk box" in a local camera shop, of the 10 Nikkor lenses in it, all 10 were broken!

Mark Crabtree · Jan 30, 2012

Rol_Lei Nut said:
8) Black finish flaking. Makes me wonder about local environmental conditions (more the chemical than the climatic variety) or the user's diet...

That one at least is well documented. The anodizing on Leica lens (R & M) was not always the best, but usually you just see minor wear and tear. But I believe there was a brief time when the produced some seriously flawed anodizing that flaked off badly. I've seen or heard of it rarely, but I seem to remember a bad case with a 6 element 35 Summicron M, so probably early 70's.

I'm sure Sherry Krauter could tell you exactly when this happened. She also documented the various issues with the SL and SL2 (called them "silent recalls" I think). She knows these cameras literally inside out and speaks very highly of them (not so with the R3 and R4.

dugrant153 · Jan 30, 2012

Made a mistake...

Made the mistake of going to the rental/consignment store to try out a copy of a Leica R3 and a 50mm F2 (just for feel).

I have to say that I'm very very impressed by the build quality. It's like my Nikon F3 but better. Viewfinder is easy to use (the K screen on the F3 is really difficult the lower the light gets), dials are nice and tight (doesn't feel loose) and the shutter is ever so ... hmm... "quiant"? Not much of a "thwack" and more like a "punt". Would love to see how the image quality is coming from one of those Leica lenses *drool*.

I have to say that I still love my F3 and will be practicing with it for the long little while now as I still can't justify a total switch to an R system (say a Leica R4 and Leica Summicron R 50mm F2). It's just way out of my budget. And at the moment I don't think the improvements I get can justify my cost but maybe sometime down the road when I feel the need to take my art to another level.

My question is... with the R system discontinued, what future do the R lenses have beyond the Leica R bodies? Maybe mounted on a Canon/Nikon full frame digital? (oops! Sorry! bad word there! LOL)... with an adaptor?

Looked into the Leitax option briefly... looks interesting.

Rol_Lei Nut · Jan 31, 2012

dugrant153 said:
Made the mistake of going to the rental/consignment store to try out a copy of a Leica R3 and a 50mm F2 (just for feel).

I have to say that I'm very very impressed by the build quality. It's like my Nikon F3 but better. Viewfinder is easy to use (the K screen on the F3 is really difficult the lower the light gets), dials are nice and tight (doesn't feel loose) and the shutter is ever so ... hmm... "quiant"? Not much of a "thwack" and more like a "punt". Would love to see how the image quality is coming from one of those Leica lenses *drool*.

I have to say that I still love my F3 and will be practicing with it for the long little while now as I still can't justify a total switch to an R system (say a Leica R4 and Leica Summicron R 50mm F2). It's just way out of my budget. And at the moment I don't think the improvements I get can justify my cost but maybe sometime down the road when I feel the need to take my art to another level.

My question is... with the R system discontinued, what future do the R lenses have beyond the Leica R bodies? Maybe mounted on a Canon/Nikon full frame digital? (oops! Sorry! bad word there! LOL)... with an adaptor?

Looked into the Leitax option briefly... looks interesting.

Keep in mind that the R3 is probably as *bad* as the R system gets... (nothing special IMHO)
The much maligned R4 is actually (if working properly now) quite reliable.
But the real bodies to have if you want to enjoy great viewfinders & feel are the Leicaflex SL & SL2 and the R8/R9.

You are right about future options, though I'm personally waiting for a FF mirrorless for those times I want to use the "dark side"...

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Jan 31, 2012

If you want Leica lens and Summicron and a digital body , there is Panasonic option without breaking the bank , for 450 or less. I watched olympiads at china with leica lenses on panasonic cameras and slow motion athletes shots are exactly what leitz gives with muscles , skin anatomic quality like michelangelo or
da vinci drawing. But R class lens will serve you with R cameras another 30 years least. 30 years later , there will be a option for digital , nobody throws leica lenses to garbage , dont worry.

Kisatchie · Feb 1, 2012

Rol_Lei Nut said:
I decided to take a closer look at this post.....

1) Leaking (& corroding) batteries are usually not the camera's fault, but generally poor quality batteries. Could be caused by a short or even possibly by the meter always being left on. Camera's fault? Unlikely...
2) Jamming & loose shutter speed dial. Possible. Was it really sent to Leitz in Germany or some other "authorized" repair facility?
3) Lost self timer. Possible. I don't have an R3 to see how it's attached.
4) Lost film reminder window. Possible, though a sharp knock often helps...
5) 60mm that sounded like a freight train. New?(!!) Any lens of any brand that's been used on a beach as child's toy will sound like that.
6) 21mm lens shade. That lens shade has some set screws which hold it together and allow finely setting its orientation. Time & vibration (esp. in a vehcle or plane) can loosen screws. Super-glue??!!?? Definitely overkill!
7) Loose front lens ring. While possibly caused by a knock, more usually vibration is the cause. Easily tightened using a piece of rubber. Happens to all brands.
8) Black finish flaking. Makes me wonder about local environmental conditions (more the chemical than the climatic variety) or the user's diet...

So many loosening screws & rings & jams, apart from extreme bad luck or a jinx, could really be due to vibration: camera left in a glove compartment/floor of a car, in an airplane baggage rack without enough cushioning, in a motorcycle trunk ect..
IMHO, there also seems to be a certain degree of mechanical insensitivity or awareness on the part of the user.

About sensationalistic posts: a few days ago I had a look at the "junk box" in a local camera shop, of the 10 Nikkor lenses in it, all 10 were broken!

1) The leaking batteries were supplied by Leitz in the box with the SL2. I put a Duracell battery in and that leaked within a couple of weeks.
2) The camera was sent to Leitz' repair service in the US. I know because I was a salesman at the camera store that sold me the SL2 (Alfredo's Cameras in New Orleans), and I was the one who boxed and shipped the camera.
3) The self timer lever merely screws on. I have no idea how it got loose, because I never used the self timer. The camera never came in contact with sustained vibrations either.
4) The camera wasn't knocked. I took excellent care of the camera. The mere pressure of snapping the camera back was enough to loosen the window glass.
5) The squealing lens was brand new, from Leitz USA. It was sent to me directly to Alfredo's Cameras where I was employed as a salesman. The lens never saw any sandy locales, nor did a child play with it.
6) The lens shade in question has no screws holding it together. It was glued on, as I recall.
7) I admitted that the lens was dropped a couple of inches onto a glass counter top. The lens could be tightened all day, and it kept coming off all day when the filter was changed. None of my lenses from Pentax, Canon, or Nikon had this problem.
8) The blistering lenses saw the same (mostly French Quarter) environment as all my many dozens of other brand lenses (Pentax Takumars, Canon FD S.S.C, Nikon Nikkors) before and after I owned Leica R lenses. I was an untreated manic depressive, and I periodically changed entire camera systems, until I changed to Nikon. I've never used any other brand since changing to Nikon (33 years ago).

What do you mean by this statement:
"IMHO, there also seems to be a certain degree of mechanical insensitivity or awareness on the part of the user."

I'm very skilled at using my hands to do extremely fine, delicate work. The implication is that I'm a clumsy oaf, which I resent.

Rol_Lei Nut · Feb 1, 2012

Kisatchie,

My dig about "mechanical insensitivity" actually wasn't necessary or constructive, so I sincerely apologize.

It's just that the number of issues in your post seems hard to believe: I've had fewer problems with Soviet equipment and my experience with Leica, while not perfect, has been very good (actually slightly better than "call me hammer" Nikon).

I use my cameras pretty hard, take them into mountains, on treks and generally knock them around, but loose screws/rings/dials occur every few years or so (& I quickly tighten them when I notice). Thus my suspicion of sources of vibration.

BTW: 6) My 21mm lens shade is sitting on my desk now (double checked), it definitely does have set screws.

sircarl · Feb 4, 2012

About four years ago I decided, after trying out a number of Contax film SLRs (great lenses, not-so-great bodies), to get a new system. So I walked into a London used camera store and picked up a Leica R7 they had for sale. It was love at first sight, and since then it has become my primary 35mm camera. Beautifully built (except for the "palpas" mirror box lining, which had to be re-covered); solid (and yes, heavy, but not uncomfortably so for me); a very bright viewfinder; versatile shooting and metering modes -- it's just a gem. And the 35/2 and 50/2 Summicron-R's, which I use the most, are outstanding lenses, with a character very much like their M counterparts. So I'm a very happy camper.

rolleiman · Feb 5, 2012

Spent 30+ years as a pro. using Nikon gear based on the the FM2n. Reasons why pros preferred Nikon.......compact, yet robust bodies.....even with (MD12) motordrive attached.....yes it was "clattery" with a max of 3 frames a sec. (slow by today's standards, but good enough and always reliable)......FM2 with MD12 attached.....a fearsome weapon if confronted by an aggressive rioter.......a quick angled strike across the bridge of his nose...guaranteed to put him out of action.......yet the FM2 carried on working.

The 1/250th flash sync of the FM2.....a godsend when colour became the norm for news photography....
the lenses were excellent, robust...(I used mainly the older ones...35mm f2...105mm f2.5 were favourites).......they never broke down......unlike the plasticky autofocus stuff which is fragile by comparison.

For practical allround pro work, Nikon won out every time, because they made a study of what the pro needed. Leica SLR's were always for the skilled hobbyists......It's a case of "horses for courses".

dugrant153 · Feb 26, 2012

Well tried a Leica R5 and it seemed to work pretty well but I went to fire a test shit and it went "clunk" and ... I felt the mirror feedback shake the camera like my Bronica Etrs does (on a smaller scale though). Kchunk kchunk kchunk. Each time, I could feel the camera vibrate from the shutter. Thats a problem for me since I shoot handheld at low shutter speeds. The kickback from the shutter is enough to make me worry about blurry shots at lower shutter speeds where I shoot.

I suspect the R3-R7 are like this? May be time to re-look at the Leicaflex!

Ikon · Feb 27, 2012

dugrant153 said:
Well tried a Leica R5 and it seemed to work pretty well but I went to fire a test shit and it went "clunk" and ... I felt the mirror feedback shake the camera like my Bronica Etrs does (on a smaller scale though). Kchunk kchunk kchunk. Each time, I could feel the camera vibrate from the shutter. Thats a problem for me since I shoot handheld at low shutter speeds. The kickback from the shutter is enough to make me worry about blurry shots at lower shutter speeds where I shoot.

I suspect the R3-R7 are like this? May be time to re-look at the Leicaflex!

With the R6-R7 and R8-R9, you have the possibility to make jump back the mirror before releasing the shutter (R6-7: a cable release is mounted near the lens to make the mirror jump back; R8-9: there is a special switch to make jump back the mirror when you push the release knob), so problems with blurry shots due to vibrations can be easily avoided.
I use the R8 since 10 years: IMHO; it's a fantastic camera (viewer brightness, lightmeter quality, general reliability, energy consumption,...).

E. von Hoegh · Feb 27, 2012

dugrant153 said:
Well tried a Leica R5 and it seemed to work pretty well but I went to fire a test shit and it went "clunk" and ... I felt the mirror feedback shake the camera like my Bronica Etrs does (on a smaller scale though). Kchunk kchunk kchunk. Each time, I could feel the camera vibrate from the shutter. Thats a problem for me since I shoot handheld at low shutter speeds. The kickback from the shutter is enough to make me worry about blurry shots at lower shutter speeds where I shoot.

I suspect the R3-R7 are like this? May be time to re-look at the Leicaflex!

Just because you feel something, doesn't mean it will affect the photo. Most of what you feel is the mirror returning, after the shutter has closed.

Leica R4 and the whole R system

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