Leica M3 vs Leica M3

cerber0s · Aug 17, 2023

After this thread https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/price-of-rangefinders.201101/page-2#post-2712538 I decided to free up some cash and get a Leica M3. There are two for sale at a very reputable camera store not too far away; a 1955 DS that has been “looked over and serviced”, and a 1962 SS that comes with a 1958 50mm f2.8 Elmar.

The 1955 looks very clean while the 1962 has had some leatherette coming off, but looks good otherwise. The 1955 costs $1370, and the 1962 costs $1645 including the lens. I’ll be looking at them tomorrow. Any thoughts?

GregY · Aug 17, 2023

cerber0s said:
After this thread https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/price-of-rangefinders.201101/page-2#post-2712538 I decided to free up some cash and get a Leica M3. There are two for sale at a very reputable camera store not too far away; a 1955 DS that has been “looked over and serviced”, and a 1962 SS that comes with a 1958 50mm f2.8 Elmar.

The 1955 looks very clean while the 1962 has had some leatherette coming off, but looks good otherwise. The 1955 costs $1370, and the 1962 costs $1645 including the lens. I’ll be looking at them tomorrow. Any thoughts?

While some people do like the DS, many prefer the single stroke Leicas.....which you can also advance in multiple strokes. I'd be much more inclined to consider the 1962 w lens. "Looked over and serviced" is meaningless to me without a receipt and without knowing exactly who serviced it.

madNbad · Aug 17, 2023

The M3 from 1955 has a glass pressure plate.It also may not have the frame line selector lever. There are no parts to repair the double stroke mechanism, if it breaks, it will be converted to single stroke. Both it and the 1962 version used balsam as the adhesive to assemble the rangefinder components. Being an organic material, it can degrade over time causing discoloration or separation.
Check carefully for fungus in the finder. I was in a shop when a customer brought in a stunning, mint condition first run M3. It had been stored in the leather case for decades a the finder was a web of fungal threads. So was the lens.
The vulcanite is fairly easy to remove if it has reached the point of falling off. There are several suppliers of camera covers with a lot of options for both material and color.
Keep in mind theses are old cameras and will most likely need servicing. A trip to a good repair shop will be a couple of hundred euros but you’ll have a camera that will be a joy to use and last a long time. Hope this helps.

Don_ih · Aug 17, 2023

cerber0s said:
$1645 including the lens

Might be a stellar deal, depending on the lens and how well everything operates. If the lens is a Leitz (doesn't matter which one) and the glass is (a) relatively unscratched and (b) not hazy or filled with mushrooms, that alone would cost at least $600. Make sure the aperture works.

Elmarc · Aug 17, 2023

cerber0s said:
After this thread https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/price-of-rangefinders.201101/page-2#post-2712538 I decided to free up some cash and get a Leica M3. There are two for sale at a very reputable camera store not too far away; a 1955 DS that has been “looked over and serviced”, and a 1962 SS that comes with a 1958 50mm f2.8 Elmar.

The 1955 looks very clean while the 1962 has had some leatherette coming off, but looks good otherwise. The 1955 costs $1370, and the 1962 costs $1645 including the lens. I’ll be looking at them tomorrow. Any thoughts?

The 1955 example will have the older speed sequence eg: 100 50 etc whereas the 1962 model will have the standard 60 125 if that bothers you.
Plus the Elmar 50 2.8 is particularly prone to haze as the aperture blades sit very close to the front element. Something worth checking.

madNbad · Aug 17, 2023

The first M3s were full of Leitz engineers worries. The double stroke mechanism was because they were worried the film might break or get static marks if advanced too quickly. The glass pressure plate was to ensure a smooth surface for the film to travel across. There’s no preview level because they didn’t see the need for one. Change the lens and the proper frame lines come up. Even the lens release collar to keep users from accidentally releasing the lens.
They were built to a very high standard. Just the fact the M3 rolled out sixty nine years ago next month.
If the DS has been serviced, that would make it the better choice of the two. Lenses are easy to find.

btaylor · Aug 17, 2023

If it were me, I would be looking at a camera I would never sell (like my M2). I would not be that concerned about bringing either of them up to snuff and would be expecting to spend a few hundred to get it to where I want it. Given that, I would think about what 50mm lens I want. As pointed out, the Elmar sells for about $400–600 on its own. That would put me in the single stroke camp, and I have never come across anyone who said they preferred the DS over the SS. Whichever one you choose, enjoy! You really can’t go wrong either way.

4season · Aug 17, 2023

The detailing on the older M3s can be slightly nicer (ball bearing latches on film door, bright spun-metal finish shutter speed dial), but newer ones are better shooters, IMO, so I'd choose the newer camera.

madNbad · Aug 17, 2023

Prior to 1957, Leica used the European standard for shutter speeds so most likely the DS shutter speed dial will be marked a little differently than you're used to.

BradS · Aug 17, 2023

If you are a photographer and want to take pictures with it, get the single stroke. If you are a collector and want a curious relic, maybe think about the double stroke for a minute but then get the single stroke anyway.

awty · Aug 17, 2023

I have a DS with a glass pressure plate, all works fine. I can effortless switch from DS to SS and back again without even thing about it....but if the Elmar is good get that, its all about the lenses.

awty · Aug 17, 2023

BradS said:
If you are a photographer and want to take pictures with it, get the single stroke. If you are a collector and want a curious relic, maybe think about the double stroke for a minute but then get the single stroke anyway.

Its no drama using a DS, have you used one? They are so smooth and quick.

BradS · Aug 17, 2023

awty said:
Its no drama using a DS, have you used one? They are so smooth and quick.

I'm glad you enjoy yours, I personally wouldn't even consider a DS M3 - not even if offered at a huge discount but especially in this case, where the SS is essentially the same price or maybe less expensive -depending on how one values the included elmar.

awty · Aug 17, 2023

BradS said:
I'm glad you enjoy yours, I personally wouldn't even consider a DS M3 - not even if offered at a huge discount but especially in this case, where the SS is essentially the same price or maybe less expensive -depending on how one values the included elmar.

It's that from experience or ignorance?

madNbad · Aug 17, 2023

cerber0s said:
After this thread https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/price-of-rangefinders.201101/page-2#post-2712538 I decided to free up some cash and get a Leica M3. There are two for sale at a very reputable camera store not too far away; a 1955 DS that has been “looked over and serviced”, and a 1962 SS that comes with a 1958 50mm f2.8 Elmar.

The 1955 looks very clean while the 1962 has had some leatherette coming off, but looks good otherwise. The 1955 costs $1370, and the 1962 costs $1645 including the lens. I’ll be looking at them tomorrow. Any thoughts?

Are you going to use it with just one lens? The M3 has the .91 viewfinder and is the best camera to use with a 50mm lens. The other set of frame lines are for 90mm and 135mm. There is a wide variety of 50mm lenses on the market, plus a huge pool in the second hand market/

BradS · Aug 17, 2023

awty said:
It's that from experience or ignorance?

It's just basic economics.

Mackinaw · Aug 17, 2023

I, at one time, had both. I sold the single-stroke M3, and kept the double-stroke. The dual-stroke, to me, just felt better.

Jim B.

cerber0s · Aug 18, 2023

Thank you all, this has all been very helpful. I will let you know what I end up with

BradS said:
If you are a photographer and want to take pictures with it, get the single stroke.

It will be used for taking pictures, I don’t collect stuff

madNbad said:
Are you going to use it with just one lens? The M3 has the .91 viewfinder and is the best camera to use with a 50mm lens. The other set of frame lines are for 90mm and 135mm. There is a wide variety of 50mm lenses on the market, plus a huge pool in the second hand market/

It will be used mostly with a 50mm. I might eventually also get a 35 and a 90. Maybe…

awty · Aug 18, 2023

BradS said:
It's just basic economics.

The economics is that there usually cheaper due to speculation from people who have never used one.
Ergonomics it's very easy to use, your never going to strain your thumb while winding on and unless you're using the glass plate as a nut cracker I can't see how you would damage it.

awty · Aug 18, 2023

Mackinaw said:
I, at one time, had both. I sold the single-stroke M3, and kept the double-stroke. The dual-stroke, to me, just felt better.

Jim B.

I wouldn't swap mine for a SS in the same condition.
Mine has the service seal of an approved Leica technician.

brbo · Aug 18, 2023

BradS said:
It's just basic economics.

Because in Leicaland it's economical to pay more for same stuff?

I never tried the DS M3, but I have two Pen Fs and one of them is DS. I prefer the DS.

Anyway, I would still buy 1965 M3, but only because you can modify it (if not already) to focus closer than 0.9m-1m of the early M3.

BMbikerider · Aug 18, 2023

Elmarc said:
The 1955 example will have the older speed sequence eg: 100 50 etc whereas the 1962 model will have the standard 60 125 if that bothers you.
Plus the Elmar 50 2.8 is particularly prone to haze as the aperture blades sit very close to the front element. Something worth checking.

I am not saying you are wrong but why is it likely to be prone to 'haze' because of the position of the aperture blades. What is your reasoning for this?

In 2000 I owned a very early M3 with the late shutter speeds. The shutter was really good which could not be said for the rest of the body and the lens (F2 Summicron) that came with it.

Make sure the rangefinder is OK, they seem to loose contrast with older models and the mirror to drift out of alignment. This can be rectified by a competent engineer, but the re-silvering is going to be a little more difficult. Check the shutter blinds are running smoothly and are also running with the edges vertical.

Elmarc · Aug 18, 2023

BMbikerider said:
I am not saying you are wrong but why is it likely to be prone to 'haze' because of the position of the aperture blades. What is your reasoning for this?

In 2000 I owned a very early M3 with the late shutter speeds. The shutter was really good which could not be said for the rest of the body and the lens (F2 Summicron) that came with it.

Make sure the rangefinder is OK, they seem to loose contrast with older models and the mirror to drift out of alignment. This can be rectified by a competent engineer, but the re-silvering is going to be a little more difficult. Check the shutter blinds are running smoothly and are also running with the edges vertical.

This information came from my Leitz trained technician many years ago. If I remember correctly, when the oil from the aperture mechanism out gasses it doesn't have far to go to reach the adjacent element.

Don_ih · Aug 18, 2023

BMbikerider said:
why is it likely to be prone to 'haze' because of the position of the aperture blades

That seems to be the reason. But whatever the reason, that Elmar is usually hazy on the inside of the front element and it should be noted that the haze does not wipe off. It's etched into the surface of the inside of the lens.

cerber0s · Aug 18, 2023

Thank you all for your advice! It turned out both cameras had been serviced, the store sent them away for a proper CLA before putting them up or sale. Standing there, it was a no-brainer, I went or the 1962 SS with the Elmar lens. The lens by the way looked surprisingly clean, just a few specks of dust.

First roll of film (10 frames) put through it. The first half came out great, the second not so much, they became gradually more and more out of focus. I guess I must have forgot to lock the lens after extending it. Lesson learned early...

Sample shot included (no, it's not my hat).

Leica M3 vs Leica M3

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