leica m3 on ebay?

hey there! this is my first post at apug - i hope no one minds me jumping right in with a favor to ask of you. until recently i have been primarily digital...but i'm slowly being lured back to film by the film gods. i'm an on-location children's photographer and work primarily with natural light so leicas are right up my alley, tho not in my price range.

yesterday, on a whim, i bid on an m3 on ebay and lost the auction with 4 seconds left. apparently, the transaction fell thru and the seller has offered to sell me the item at my highest bid ($1050). while i'd like to think fate has played a role here i'm here looking for an outside opinion. right now there is a huge list of reasons to buy... i just need to be 100% sure i'm not missing something huge. i'd love to hear any opinions on this outfit. if you have a sec, check out this auction link and either talk me down from this ledge or push me off.

amber lowe said:

hey there! this is my first post at apug - i hope no one minds me jumping right in with a favor to ask of you. until recently i have been primarily digital...but i'm slowly being lured back to film by the film gods. i'm an on-location children's photographer and work primarily with natural light so leicas are right up my alley, tho not in my price range.

yesterday, on a whim, i bid on an m3 on ebay and lost the auction with 4 seconds left. apparently, the transaction fell thru and the seller has offered to sell me the item at my highest bid ($1050). while i'd like to think fate has played a role here i'm here looking for an outside opinion. right now there is a huge list of reasons to buy... i just need to be 100% sure i'm not missing something huge. i'd love to hear any opinions on this outfit. if you have a sec, check out this auction link and either talk me down from this ledge or push me off.

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It sure is purdy...

I don't keep up on prices for Leica gear, but keep in mind it will probably need a CLA and that is going to cost a few bucks as well. This is NOT a camera you'll just drop off at the Mom & Pop camera shop to have them send off to who-knows-where camera repair, you'll want a Leica specialist to look it over.

Having said that, it sure is purdy!

Welcome to the site. I would never buy an ebay item outside of the ebay realm, this is a HUGE scam tactic. The seller claims the sale fell through, then via email gets you and 10 other people to believe it fell through and it can be "yours".. payment is made and the seller vanishes, then there is nothing you can do about it. If you do buy it make sure it is all done within ebay so you can get buyer protection..

I don't know much about Leica models and prices but I am happy to tempt you back to the "dark side". Film rules!

There are plenty of Leica folks here as well as some very accomplished photographers of children. Hopefully they will chime in to answer your specific questions.

Welcome to APUG,

There is only ONE WAY for this to be legitimate. The seller can send you a "Second Chance" offer, which will take you to an official eBay link where you can purchase the item thru eBay as normal. I sold some golf clubs and the original buyer didn't go thru with the purchase. I went down the line of other bidders sending them a "Second Chance" offer from eBay, they went to the link and paid for it there. So, there is a legitimate way to do this.

I have received MANY scam offers from people representing themselves as the sellers and offering to sell me the item off-ebay, all I have to do is PayPal the money to them or whatever. This is a scam, period. Never respond to these people, instead go on to eBay and report that they contacted you. I'm quire cetain that you'll never see the camera if you buy it unless it's a legit "Second Chance" offer from eBay.

BE CAREFUL!

-Mike

Contact the seller directly through ebay and ask him if in fact he sent you a second chance offer. I sold a 3.5 item for some one recently and was bombarded with emails from people who wanted details on the 2nd chance offer I sent them -- I sent no 2nd chance offers.

I would not go for it. I checked his feedback and although he has 100% positive feedback, all of it is on small ticket items. This is a common tactic scammers have, they create an identity, they bid buy and sell low ticket items and then they hit ebay with the big ticket item. OTOH this guy has been a member since 2003, I doubt he is dishonest, but somehow it just does not feel right.....better listen to your intuition. If you are asking here it is because you feel something is not right...go with your gut feeling.

ack, i should have clarified that i have been notified by ebay and this is legit. i can't make much of the lens description so i'm a bit hesitant. any help would be appreciated.

thanks for the warm welcome.

Sean and Mike make a good point. At a time when you may feel overwhelmed by emotional urges remember that no matter how pretty it is, there are a lot of other Leicas out there. Err on the side of caution. Fate can be fickle.

k.... you guys have talked me off that ledge. thanks for helping me sort this one out. you're right...there are many fish in the sea.

amber lowe said:

ack, i should have clarified that i have been notified by ebay and this is legit. <snip>.

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The scammers have tried to pull this one on me. As with you, eBay, cretinous idiots that they are, told me that no, it was not a scam... This despite the fact that the email the scammer sent me claimed to come from "2nd Chance" but was in fact sent via "contact member" and the "reply to sender" link that ebay's software automatically attaches to the end of the email pointed to a different ebay account from the seller's... Took me another, rather more scathing, email to eBay to get them to realise what was what... So that's a week the scammers had to con other people with that member account. Similarly, the scammer put in a last second bid - I spoke to the seller - they tried to get him to take a company cheque for 5 times the amount of the sale, take out his price (plus a bit extra "for his trouble") and send the rest to someone else as they owed that person the money, blah, blah, blah... about as transparent a con as you can get.

Look at the header of the "2nd Chance" email - it should come from "2ndchanceoffer@ebay.com" (or something similar - here in the UK it's "2ndchanceoffer.uk@ebay.com) NOT "aw-confirm@ebay.com". If the latter, it is definitely a scam. Follow the link at the bottom of the email to reply to the sender and see if it is the sellers account (if it's a scam they will probably have said to reply via a different email address). Also, I note that you do not appear to be teh 2nd highest bidder - surely that bidder would have been contacted 1st with a 2nd Chance offer?

The fact that the "winning" bidder is apparently in Taiwan and sniped it when the auction is restricted to the US suggests the seller may be legit and the scam was (and still is being) tried by the guy in Taiwan (or of course, they could be one and the same person: the permutations are endless...). Mrcallow has probably the best solution - contact the seller through eBay and see if he did in fact send you a 2nd Chance offer. However, for a $1000+ ticket item, I would want to collect in person.

Bottom line: do not trust anyone - not even eBay itself... not even me - I certainly don't (well, I trust me obviously.... well, most of the time anyway)...


Cheers, Bob.

Hard to know who to trust, isn't it? Here's another one I don't know what to make of:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=38612&item=3877917772&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

well, initially i did believe it was legit but decided it was too risky. something didn't feel right. reading the last few posts lead me to check the reply link and sure enough, different seller. 'cept this guy's not too bright. his story is that he won't ship outside of the us and the email i'm supposed to reply to is a uk email address. you know how you usually just sorta skim over email addresses... thanks again guys!

FYI: What is very very common in eBay is self-bidding. Its, for many items and sellers, nearly the rule and not the exception. Sellers are motivated by psychology but also eBay's price structure to set the starting price low and self-bid the price up to the "true minimum". Many sellers watching a price go well beyond their original expectations can get greedy and push things "over the top". The second bidder is disappointed. It used to be the seller had fees to pay for something they did not sell. No longer! The official "second chance" offers provided via eBay are just one of eBay's, who get a percentage of the final price, measures to help encourage this kind of self-bidding greed. Since the markets are small they are, in this manner, easily manipulated and interestingly can results in general higher prices as those "disappointed" up their willingness to pay to win.

Try looking up KEH.com for used gear. Their prices will give you a good idea what things should cost. I've bought a couple of used cameras from them, and they have a fourteen day return policy. Something I don't think you'll get from E-bay.

David H. Bebbington said:

Hard to know who to trust, isn't it? Here's another one I don't know what to make of:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=38612&item=3877917772&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

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I think if I was looking for a Leica I'd only bid on this camera on the understanding that I could collect in person and pay cash. After all Doncaster is not a huge distance from most parts of the UK.

Everyone using Ebay has to start from scratch with a Zero rating. In favour of this add is the camera has been reasonably photographed, it's a whole kit and looks in clean condition, so if I was after it I'd email to see if I could ask a few questions by phone.

Personal contact works wonders, I bought a 10"x8" camera from the US and it was necessary to clear payment & shipping details before final bidding, as the seller had put shipped to US and canada only, not realising we have UPS in the UK

edz said:

FYI: What is very very common in eBay is self-bidding. Its, for many items and sellers, nearly the rule and not the exception. Sellers are motivated by psychology but also eBay's price structure to set the starting price low and self-bid the price up to the "true minimum". Many sellers watching a price go well beyond their original expectations can get greedy and push things "over the top". The second bidder is disappointed. It used to be the seller had fees to pay for something they did not sell. No longer! The official "second chance" offers provided via eBay are just one of eBay's, who get a percentage of the final price, measures to help encourage this kind of self-bidding greed. Since the markets are small they are, in this manner, easily manipulated and interestingly can results in general higher prices as those "disappointed" up their willingness to pay to win.

Click to expand...

There is a name for this practice. It is called Shill Bidding. Shill Bidding is not legal on eBay. If you have evidence that a seller or a their confederate is shill bidding, send the evidence to eBay Safe Harbour.

I recently purchased an M3 ds with a 50mm summitar lens on ebay for $750. The camera was in excellent cosmetic shape and the shutter fired fine except for the slower speeds which indicated that it will need some work (cha-ching).

The lens had some internal fog and the aperture was tight but the glass was unscratched, so I had the lens overhauled for $85 (money well spent).

If I were to spend over $1,000 I would want the camera to be in very good mechanical shape. Why pay a premium price for a camera that needs work when you can the same camera for a lot less that needs the same work.

I agree with Suzanne about KEH being a good source of price-point info. Their prices will usually be at the high end of the spectrum, but their grading is accurate and they are excellent to deal with.

M3s often carry a bit of a price premium, as that model has a bit of a cult following.

Apart from all that ebay..
I would say 1000$ is not a good price for a M3. I picked my M3 as users for 500€ so including service that is about 1000 US-$. You are not talking about CAN-$?
Do not worry too much about the vulcanite, unless stored away, reasonable M3s have some chips missing. (Stored away ones usually have trouble with shutter speeds) Stay away from M3s with nasty dents, dents on the right side of the upper body part might have damaged frame counter and transport, dents over the windows might have impacts on the rangefinder. 1-2 mm is not nasty, 5 mm sure is.

So for a user M3 look for something with missing vulcanite some very small dents on the cover, as no collector will even look at them so price will be reasonable. Check for rangefinder adjustment and smooth transport, certain shutter speeds should make funny sounds like 1/30, check for 1 sec shutter speeds. Check rangefinder arm inside camera for signs of heavy tool use, read misuse. If times are off but generally running and rangefinder is a bit off - but not misused, all this can be handled by a CLA ( read general service by a specialist, 150 $-150 GBP). Usually a fair dealer will give in a few % off when you tell him his camera needs a CLA for sure and you would have to calculate that into the price.

I rather pick my cameras personally and check them myself before putting down the cash, there are only three shops I would buy a used Leica unseen, mostly because I know these people. So don't exspect me to give advice on Ebay shopping.

Summary:
Check M3 for internal fitness, consider a CLA, do not worry too much about cosmetics, you want to use your M3.

And you are welcome to come back, asking for which lenses to get with it..

Wolfram

it's baaaack....

It looks like the seller has relisted this camera

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3878575066&fromMakeTrack=true

The seller claims he knew nothing of the second chance feature...

Beware!!!!!