Leica M3 - minor shutter issue

c41 · May 14, 2017

I wonder if anyone has any idea what might be the problem?

My Leica M3 frequently seems to jam on the very first shot I fire with it.
The shutter fires (click, blinds open), but I can't advance/recock (the advance lever is jammed tight/blinds haven't closed.)

But when I move the shutter speed to another gear train/set of speeds, it completes the shutter firing process (whirr, blinds close) and I can advance as normal. Sometimes it just completes the shutter action on its own without changing shutter speeds, maybe 5-30 seconds later.

Thereafter however many times I fire the shutter, it's absolutely fine every single time.

The annoyance has been reproducing this problem for assessment/repair. I've sent it off twice, but they've been unable to reproduce the problem and its returned without further action.

When not in use, I leave the M3 with the shutter cocked. At first I thought maybe I was somehow nudging the self-timer, or it might be something in how I set the shutter speed, but it seems to occur at common speeds (definitely 1/250 and 1/60) and when the camera has just been sitting for a day or two at the speed at which I then fire it (and it jams.)

I'll keep trying to isolate how it's occurring but since it's hard to reproduce, it's been a slow process.

guangong · May 15, 2017

It is probably time for a cla. An unpredictable camera will usually act up at just the wrong time. Send camera off to someone with expertise in m3s. Not exactly an identical problem but I am experiencing unpredictability with a Contax iia. Frustrating isn't it?

c41 · May 15, 2017

Thanks, yes it is frustrating, I yearn to just use it again without issue.
I have sent it for a CLA twice but they've been unable to reproduce the problem. I'll just have to send it off again I think.
1/1000 did it earlier this evening, and rotating the shutter dial to 1/8 released the jam.

John Koehrer · May 15, 2017

I think guangong's right. When it works on the second stroke, old lube has likely been
loosened by the first release.
When you change the shutter dial especially a range that goes in the ranges controlled
with the slow speed escapement, you're moving a lever on the escapement.
If your technician doesn't find a problem, it might help by chilling the camera overnight
when they assess the camera.
The cold may make the fault more apparent.

c41 · Jun 26, 2017

Following a further assessment by a technician, they were finally able to reproduce the problem.

It turns out the shutter blinds are deteriorating to the extent they've become sticky and one part is getting stuck in the metal strip of the blind.
I have a picture of the blind from that assessment that looks like a partial tear through the fabric where this problem is happening.

So, I have to get the shutter blinds completely replaced (not a service my local technician can perform.)
Any recommendations on where I can get this done, and how much it is likely to cost me?

I also won't be purchasing Leica equipment from a specific Austrian-based Leica eBay dealer ever again.
They sold me the camera at a premium as fully serviced/full working condition but now it's apparent that was not the case, wash their hands of the problem.

All in all it's been an expensive, frustrating process and one that's meant I've had to sell my lovely M2 to cover costs along the way.

c41 · Jun 26, 2017

A picture of the root cause of the problem FWIW.

Patrick Robert James · Jun 27, 2017

DAG has always been the go to here in the US as the best, if not only, technician. If I ever need a Leica worked on, he would be who I sent it to.

It is too bad about your experience. You should contact the dealer. If they sold it to you as fully serviced, they should stand behind that unless you had it for a long time. At the very least they should help you on the service.

Good luck.

c41 · Jun 27, 2017

Thanks. Unfortunately it took me 4 months to have the problem correctly diagnosed, the pace of service here with limited options available.
The dealer scoffed at my contact with them once I had my diagnosis.

The issue of the significant time elapsed since the sale I can relate to.
The 'failure of trust' that I feel concerning my purchase from an official Leica dealer for what was sold as a fully serviced camera in full working condition on the other hand.

It seems plain to me in retrospect that this was a camera that was probably just 'flipped' by them without any kind of service. It wasn't advertised as such but my options now are limited.
I should have sent it back immediately it showed anything vaguely out of the envelope of expected behaviour. I thought I would be a good guy and not cause a fuss over what seemed a minor issue, more fool me.

Now they give me the flick but, long term, I give them the flick and am happy to relate my experience with anyone who asks.

I'll try DAG, thank you. Though once repaired it's going to be hard to feel the love for this particular camera.

Huss · Jun 27, 2017

c41 said:
When not in use, I leave the M3 with the shutter cocked.

Never do this. All the camera technicians I know recommend against this for cameras with mechanical focal plane shutters.

Try this. Use the camera. When you put it away make sure that the shutter is not cocked. Let it sit a couple of days, then see how it works.

Ko.Fe. · Jun 27, 2017

Youxin Ye might be faster alternative, if not cheaper.
http://www.yyecamera.com/price_m_body.html

pmargolis · Jun 27, 2017

I would highly recommend DAG. He's worked on my three Leicas -- M4P, M2 and CL -- and has always done a superb job.
Paul

John Koehrer · Jun 27, 2017

I've used Youxin Yee in the past and was very happy with the results. He's very quick with
replying to emails and took less than two weeks with my camera.
Several threads around that find DAG to be either slow or not especially great with communicating

GregW · Jun 27, 2017

My M3 had this exact problem it eventually caused it to jam. Youxin Ye did a great job fixing it. Very quick too.

c41 · Jun 27, 2017

Huss said:
Never do this. All the camera technicians I know recommend against this for cameras with mechanical focal plane shutters.
Try this. Use the camera. When you put it away make sure that the shutter is not cocked. Let it sit a couple of days, then see how it works.

Thanks for all the feedback all. I'll try both recommended parties, see what the cost/timeframe is likely to be.

re: the above and leaving the shutter cocked. I haven't heard this before? My normal way to use any Leica body is to take a shot, then wind it on ready for the next one.
When I put the camera down it will always be cocked ready for the next shot, whenever that may be.

Is this wrong? Am I supposed to waste a frame before I put the camera away? I'd never remember not to wind on after a shot, this is rote whenever I press the shutter button (hell, it's the second best part of the photographic process )
Are others doing this? I went back to check the M3 manual and can't find a reference to doing this, even though it makes specific mention of the reasons for a double stroke advance (must be a older manual.)

Whatever the status with that, I want to pursue a proper solution for this issue.
My tech here did offer a temporary fix with moly powder to cover the damage, but I'd rather get it properly resolved.

Patrick Robert James · Jun 27, 2017

The problem with leaving the shutter cocked is it leaves the springs under tension. Over time they get weaker and the shutter starts to have problems like capping. If you are concerned about "wasting" a frame, take a selfie! Everyone else does it these days.

Chrismat · Jun 27, 2017

I've used DAG before and I was very happy with his work, but the repair took over a year. I think Youxin Ye would be a lot faster.

c41 · Jun 27, 2017

A 35mm frame here or there doesn't bother me, this is why I have a cat. No selfies though thanks! I only point the camera that direction for getting a fun group shot with a wide angle.

Is the cocked shutter an issue with all M bodies, or only the older ones? It's not something documented by Leica afaik but then I have no idea or interest in how shutters actually work (only that they do.)

1 year? Yikes. May as well send it to Leica in that scope

Huss · Jun 28, 2017

I couldn't find it in Leica's manuals, but all the techs I know say never to put the camera away with the shutter cocked.
It states this in the Nikon F manual on page 5. Another all mechanical camera, so I think the same idea would apply.
Manual here:
http://www.cameramanuals.org/nikon_pdf/nikon_f.pdf

c41 · Jun 28, 2017

Thanks Huss. I think for now I'll continue to leave the shutter cocked if it's just for overnight.

But any longer - then the cat gets a close up and the springs get some rest.

I'm not one for leaving half finished rolls in cameras for long anyway.
I appreciate the advice, I certainly haven't enjoyed having shutter problems.

jgoody · Jul 7, 2017

It's best to get in the habit of winding the camera right before you shoot. If you finish the "shooting session" with the camera cocked it's way cheaper to shoot a blank than to risk leaving the shutter cocked and putting excess wear on the spring. The M3 production was 1954 - 1966 so these cameras are 50+ years old. Your problems may not be related to leaving the shutter cocked but in general it's not a good practice with any film camera.

Theo Sulphate · Jul 7, 2017

Is there a Mechanical Engineer in the house?

The issue of "springs becoming weak" is a question I've asked of three mechanical engineers at different companies and at different times. It relates not only to cameras but also to other things, such as keeping spare firearm magazines loaded or unloaded.

In all three cases the engineers told me the same thing: having tension on a spring doesn't matter; it doesn't weaken the spring. What weakens springs eventually is their flexing over time (i.e. ordinary use).

Also keep in mind that Hasselblad lenses are typically always cocked (they need to be in order to remove or mount them) and, in the case of motorized Hasselblads, they're always cocked.

Normally, though, I keep my cameras uncocked -- unless it's a type of SLR without an instant return mirror: those I keep cocked because I want the mirror down and off the foam.

jgoody · Jul 7, 2017

Interesting. Intuitively it seems that having parts under tension would promote wear, if not the springs themselves then the other parts they apply tension to. But I am open to learning that it's an old wives tale. All of these old cameras are, I believe, way past the life span the original engineers anticipated - so some issues are inevitable. But please any mechanical engineers help us out here. I need to keep these babies working.

Theo Sulphate · Jul 7, 2017

jgoody said:
Interesting. Intuitively it seems that having parts under tension would promote wear, if not the springs themselves then the other parts they apply tension to. But I am open to learning that it's an old wives tale. ...

To me, motion implies wear and static force does not.

Even so, I am totally open minded on this and simply am searching for the TRVTH.

("you can't handle the truth!", yeah, yeah...)

jgoody · Jul 7, 2017

But I know that one can boff up spring steel by overbending it -- don't ask me how I learned this!

E. von Hoegh · Jul 7, 2017

Your car sits on springs. Have you noticed it sitting lower each year? In my pocket is a watch well over 100 years old, I cannot vouch for the mainspring, but the balance spring is original - this spring flexes 5 times per second. The shutter springs in a camera are always under tension, cocked or not. If leaving a spring under tension would weaken it, it wouldn't be a spring. A properly made spring that isn't abused will last a very very long time. Leaving a shutter cocked puts strain on more than just the springs, and I never advance film or cock a shutter unless I am ready to make an exposure. Nikon reccomends leaving the F2 cocked for no more than 24 hrs..

Leica M3 - minor shutter issue

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