Leica M2- Where to start film advance counter?

asamimasa · Oct 24, 2013

My M2 kit is finally set up and ready for shooting, and while a film advance counter that doesn't automatically reset doesn't bother me too much, I'm not quite sure where to start it. Do folks set it to ~38 and start from 1 as normal?

Also, I'm a bit confused about the DIN/ASA dial on the back- did Germans have their own set of film speed numbers at the time?

Looking forward to getting good use out of it this weekend!

summicron1 · Oct 25, 2013

load the film, crank off two blank frames while making sure the rewind knob is rotating backwards, THEN turn the film counter until it is pointing at one. TAke pictures, rewind film, lather, rinse, repeat.

The din/asa dial is because the Germans, at one time, used the DIN scale instead of ASA which is now ISO. A DIN of 21 is the same as ASA 100, DIN of 27 is the same as 400, and so on (or, in German, 'usw' = 'und so weiter').

Nobody uses DIN any more, but you still find some old meters marked in it.

MattKing · Oct 25, 2013

summicron1 said:
load the film, crank off two blank frames while making sure the rewind knob is rotating backwards, THEN turn the film counter until it is pointing at one. TAke pictures, rewind film, lather, rinse, repeat.

The din/asa dial is because the Germans, at one time, used the DIN scale instead of ASA which is now ISO. A DIN of 21 is the same as ASA 100, DIN of 27 is the same as 400, and so on (or, in German, 'usw' = 'und so weiter').

Nobody uses DIN any more, but you still find some old meters marked in it.

Actually ...

The DIN and ASA standards were combined into the modern ISO standard. It continues to be correct to specify film sensitivity as 100/21 where 100 is the arithmetic sensitivity (as ASA was) and 21 is the logarithmic sensitivity (as DIN was).

We most commonly see just the arithmetic part.

asamimasa · Oct 25, 2013

Just what I needed to know, thanks!

Trask · Oct 25, 2013

And if we moved to binary code sensitivity, in our modern digital age, ISO 100 would be...1100100. Try fitting that on a meter dial!

Now excuse me while I go push develop some Tri-X 110010000 to 11001000000!

E. von Hoegh · Oct 25, 2013

summicron1 said:
load the film, crank off two blank frames while making sure the rewind knob is rotating backwards, THEN turn the film counter until it is pointing at one. TAke pictures, rewind film, lather, rinse, repeat.

The din/asa dial is because the Germans, at one time, used the DIN scale instead of ASA which is now ISO. A DIN of 21 is the same as ASA 100, DIN of 27 is the same as 400, and so on (or, in German, 'usw' = 'und so weiter').

Nobody uses DIN any more, but you still find some old meters marked in it.

DIN = Deutsche Industrie Norm.
ASA = American Standards Association.
ISO = International Organisation for Standardisation.

E. von Hoegh · Oct 25, 2013

asamimasa said:
Just what I needed to know, thanks!

You may find more here: http://www.butkus.org/chinon/leica/leica_m2/leica_m2.htm

Someonenameddavid · Oct 25, 2013

MattKing said:
Actually ...

The DIN and ASA standards were combined into the modern ISO standard. It continues to be correct to specify film sensitivity as 100/21 where 100 is the arithmetic sensitivity (as ASA was) and 21 is the logarithmic sensitivity (as DIN was).

We most commonly see just the arithmetic part.

A question just flickered across my frontal cortex: it seems odd that DIN should be a base 3 logarithm... is it associated with the dB concept that 3dB is the difference in amplitude that is detectible by the human ear..( I dunno, not a physicist)

David

Peltigera · Oct 25, 2013

I have a brand-new roll of Agfa Vista + in front of me and it states that the film speed is ISO 200 . 24ᴼ so the logarithmic DIN system is still in place on modern films.

As I use a number of quite old cameras, I always use the DIN figure as the ASA system changed drastically in the late 1950s and meters from before then have DIN 21 equal to ASA 40, rather than ASA 100.

It is not quite right to say that ASA was arithmetic and DIN was logarithmic (although that is correct) as the DIN system used (uses) a very different emulsion characteristic to measure film speed than the ASA system did. A large ASA difference in film speed between two films would not necessarily mean a large DIN difference. The DIN system (or degree part of ISO) measures a fixed density above the fog level while the ASA system ( and first part of ISO) is based on the gradient of the log exposure/density curve. It is at least theoretically possible for one film to be faster than another according to DIN and slower according to ASA.

Xmas · Oct 25, 2013

summicron1 said:
load the film, crank off two blank frames while making sure the rewind knob is rotating backwards, THEN turn the film counter until it is pointing at one. TAke pictures, rewind film, lather, rinse, repeat.

The manual seems to say close baseplate fire two blank frames then set counter to zero?

MattKing · Oct 25, 2013

Peltigera said:
It is not quite right to say that ASA was arithmetic and DIN was logarithmic (although that is correct) as the DIN system used (uses) a very different emulsion characteristic to measure film speed than the ASA system did. A large ASA difference in film speed between two films would not necessarily mean a large DIN difference. The DIN system (or degree part of ISO) measures a fixed density above the fog level while the ASA system ( and first part of ISO) is based on the gradient of the log exposure/density curve. It is at least theoretically possible for one film to be faster than another according to DIN and slower according to ASA.

It is my understanding that when the ISO standard was put in place, the ASA and DIN procedures for determining sensitivity were replaced with a single, ISO procedure.

cliveh · Oct 25, 2013

summicron1 said:
load the film, crank off two blank frames while making sure the rewind knob is rotating backwards, THEN turn the film counter until it is pointing at one. TAke pictures, rewind film.

+1

A question just flickered across my frontal cortex: it seems odd that DIN should be a base 3 logarithm... is it associated with the dB concept that 3dB is the difference in amplitude that is detectible by the human ear..( I dunno, not a physicist)

David

Are you a robot?

PhotoJim · Oct 25, 2013

I always set the exposure counter to 38 and then wind on from there, but since most manual exposure counters go 0 to 40, that's the same thing as winding on two frames and setting it to zero I suppose.

Nick Merritt · Oct 25, 2013

Yeah, I usually set it at 0 after winding and firing the two frames. Why not set it to 1? I guess because I feel as though I'm getting a "bonus" frame. Stupid, I know.

mhcfires · Oct 25, 2013

Nick Merritt said:
Yeah, I usually set it at 0 after winding and firing the two frames. Why not set it to 1? I guess because I feel as though I'm getting a "bonus" frame. Stupid, I know.

Me too.

m

Peltigera · Oct 25, 2013

MattKing said:
It is my understanding that when the ISO standard was put in place, the ASA and DIN procedures for determining sensitivity were replaced with a single, ISO procedure.

That is my understanding for the current ISO system - using the fixed density above fog method of the old DIN. My comments were regarding the DIN and ASA standards, not ISO.

Someonenameddavid · Oct 28, 2013

cliveh said:
+1

A question just flickered across my frontal cortex: it seems odd that DIN should be a base 3 logarithm... is it associated with the dB concept that 3dB is the difference in amplitude that is detectible by the human ear..( I dunno, not a physicist)

David

Are you a robot?

Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor not a robot

cliveh · Oct 28, 2013

Xmas said:
The manual seems to say close baseplate fire two blank frames then set counter to zero?

Correct, but what he said will work.

Xmas · Oct 29, 2013

cliveh said:
Correct, but what he said will work.

mayhap but the manual says fire three blank frames is it ok to only fire two, have I misread the manual or the other post cause they seem different?

note the strange question mark in both my posts.

E. von Hoegh · Oct 29, 2013

Xmas said:
mayhap but the manual says fire three blank frames is it ok to only fire two, have I misread the manual or the other post cause they seem different?

note the strange question mark in both my posts.

Depends on how much of the film has been exposed to light. I get away with two, in all my 35s.

Xmas · Oct 29, 2013

Thanks I'll stick with three as I frequently use PET film and can get some light piping.

Leica M2- Where to start film advance counter?

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Leica M2- Where to start film advance counter?

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