Leica Experience Days 2019: Analogue Photography

Kodachromeguy · Sep 18, 2019

Ko.Fe. said:
. But it is not sustainable, profitable for size of the Leica as company. Just a goodwill. Cosina cut it then it went to low numbers. They used to make film cameras even more than Leica.

How do you know it is not sustainable? How do you know this production is not profitable? Go ahead, where is the data, show us.

Ko.Fe. · Sep 18, 2019

NB23 said:
I Leica nets 3000$ per sold body, that’s $3Million of profit per year.

What’s not sustainable in that kind of profit?

Sorry, but this can't be the NET. It is not wedding photography couple at home business. Labor, warranty service, outsourced parts, facilities and else. For the size of corporation like Leica Camera AG anything under two millions is way too small. Corporations cuts product lines and services way above than couple of mill.

Film M are not profitable business in direct numbers, but it helps to maintain company image.

NB23 · Sep 18, 2019

Ko.Fe. said:
Sorry, but this can't be the NET. It is not wedding photography couple at home business. Labor, warranty service, outsourced parts, facilities and else. For the size of corporation like Leica Camera AG anything under two millions is way too small. Corporations cuts product lines and services way above than couple of mill.

Film M are not profitable business in direct numbers, but it helps to maintain company image.

How do you know? Just blabla?

I stay by my numbers. At least $3Millions profit is made out of their M film bodies sales, and probably even more.
This is not a small number.

Besides, if it maintains the company image, this too has value. So add a few millions there.

This brings us up to 6 million now.

Goodwill, you say?

Too much blabla and magical thinking, IMO.

Ko.Fe. · Sep 18, 2019

Henning Serger said:
That is wrong. It is "not for sometime now". Leica told me that their film M models will have a long term future because of the increasing demand.
The camera market is significantly changing:
The market for digital ILC cameras is collapsing for years, and that process will continue. We have not hit the bottom yet.
On the other hand the demand for film - and as a result also film cameras - is significantly increasing.
We will see new film cameras in the market in the future. The question is not whether there will be new film cameras. The question is
- when will the first cameras be introduced
- which manufacturers will be the first
and
- which models / camera types will be introduced.
There is a good chance that Leica will belong to the first. Being nitpicking, we can already count them belonging to the first with their M-A and Sofort.

In ten years from now the relation/percentage of film cameras compared to digital cameras at Leica will be quite different from the current situation, in favour of film cameras (higher percentage compared to today's situation).
Part of my daily work are scientific analysis of the photo markets. And the incoming numbers are very clear: The film revival is getting stronger year by year.

And since then the market has changed significantly. Look at the increasing prices for Voigtländer (Cosina made) cameras, including the Zeiss Ikons.
It was the wrong decision to quit the market.
Leica made the right decision to stay in the market. And they are benefiting from the increasing demand. In 2014 Leica introduced the new M-A model at Photokina. I talked to Leica about it at that time and they explained that the increasing demand was a major reason for this decision.

Best regards,
Henning

Too many words which are copy pasted from netbased film hysteria. Sorry, but you are under illusion.

Cosina quit from film cameras few years ago. Not profitable business. Leica stopped making M7 in 2018.
Only two cameras are remaining. And here is zero new Leica trained technicians. Zero.

Ko.Fe. · Sep 18, 2019

NB23 said:
How do you know? Just blabla?

I stay by my numbers. At least $3Millions profit is made out of their M film bodies sales, and probably even more.
This is not a small number.

Besides, if it maintains the company image, this too has value. So add a few millions there.

This brings us up to 6 million now.

Goodwill, you say?

Too much blabla and magical thinking, IMO.

Ned, I'm in manufacturing and corporate business for decades. And last time I checked you are wedding photog. So, blabla and some imaginations is your thing. Not mine.

NB23 · Sep 18, 2019

Ko.Fe. said:
Ned, I'm in manufacturing and corporate business for decades. And last time I checked you are wedding photog. So, blabla and some imaginations is your thing. Not mine.

First time I see someone coming from EX-USSR bragging on his business and manufacturing knowledge.

Really?

Thanks for the laugh.

NB23 · Sep 18, 2019

Ko.Fe. said:
Ned, I'm in manufacturing and corporate business for decades. And last time I checked you are wedding photog. So, blabla and some imaginations is your thing. Not mine.

Now this irks me quite a lot.
For a lot of things.

Wtf does “last time you checked” means? A google search? An instagram search? No, really. Wtf does this mean?
First of all, the wedding business is not mine but my wife’s. My part in HER business was shooting as her assistant. You know, helping out family.

My business involves my university business degree. I’m managing. And working with real estate. Nothing even remotely connected to what you think I might be doing. Especially not phitography.

You see what you did there? Pure amateuristic errors. This is Mister Bean level research, at best.

Next time, please be well informed. So far I am not impressed. Nor by your photography general knowledge nor by your (ex-ussr) business abd manufacturing knowledge.

Henning Serger · Sep 18, 2019

Ko.Fe. said:
Too many words which are copy pasted from netbased film hysteria. Sorry, but you are under illusion.

With all respect, but that is complete nonsense.
I am successfully working in this industry for many years. In contrast to you.
My analysis have been right for all the years. Because of that companies in this industry ask me for advice. I do have the market numbers, that is part of my job and one of the core businesses of my company.
The film revival is very real.

You are under illusion because you just re-echo the "film is dead" ideology, which has been spread on the internet for years.

Ko.Fe. said:
Leica stopped making M7 in 2018.

And I know the reason because I have talked directly to the responsible manager: The stop was not because of demand, but because of supply problems: Some essential parts from other manufacturers were not available anymore. And replacements were not possible because of technological and economical reasons.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Sep 29, 2019

Hello,
just a brief report about this event:
- it was a great success, the organisers from the Leica Store Wetzlar / Leica Akademie have been very satisfied with the response from the visitors
- about 500 participants in the lectures / workshops / real slide shows during the two days
- the Leica Store in Wetzlar (Leitz-Park, at the factory) starts selling film, too, to their customers soon
- the demand for the film-based Leica M cameras increased by another +20% in the last 12 months
- the response / interest / dedication from the partcipants results in so much questions and discussions after my lectures that there was no time left for eating and drinking for me over the two days
- confirmation from Kodak Alaris Germany that Ektachrome E100 in 120 is "in preparation" (no official introduction date yet)
- the absolute highlights have been the real slide shows (cross fading / dissolving with two Leica RT-m slide projectors) from famous nature photographer Norbert Rosing (who continues to also shoot transparencies; Velvia 50 being his preferred film); he presented a selection of his best shots from the last 30 years, really outstanding photographs; and presented in the unsurpassed quality of slide projection: this was really a "festival for the eyes" !!

Best regards,
Henning

Peter Schrager · Sep 29, 2019

Thank you Henning
Your posts,are always a welcome read
Peter

guangong · Sep 30, 2019

I agree with Henning. At some point even the glut of used high quality film cameras will cease to exist and film cameras will again be manufactured. However, the film cameras of the future will most likely never achieve the same level of craftsmanship of the past. Most likely to resemble the throwaway digital cameras of today. While digital has advantages for certain applications, the fact that the film camera market was saturated and had reached its limit in technological “improvements”, so no way to increase consumer lust. On the other hand, with each succeeding model of a digital camera the users manual gets thicker and thicker.

Wallendo · Sep 30, 2019

It is good that Leica still sell three film cameras a day. Maybe soon, they will sell 4 cameras a day. But this is still a niche market.
Not everyone can afford a Leica, and many who can don't want to spend that much on a camera.
I hope one day, mass producers of film cameras will return. A key stumbling block to those trying to get into film photography is the great glut of older cameras, many of which have age or use related issues. I spent more money repairing my new-to-me Leica IIIc than I paid for the camera itself. A lot of older cameras now sell for a small fraction of the repair cost. I believe there is a market for a new reliable film camera as Instax users graduate to more traditional cameras. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be a large-enough market for any major manufacturer to re-enter.

Dali · Sep 30, 2019

If demand for film cameras increases, at one point we should reach the critical mass for manufacturers to propose new affordable film cameras.

The question is: When is it going to happen and who is willing to take a chance?

NB23 · Sep 30, 2019

Firstly, the used market is massive. Deep. Endless.

Secondly, a used camera that was 150 rolls away from breaking was, as a matter of fact, 2 months away from being replaced. This same camera, today, is easily 5 to 10 years away from being replaced in the hands of the average user/hipster/student/coolster/poseur/artist. Any Nikon on the used market, even the cheapest, can beat through the next 500 rolls like nothing. That’s a lifetime of “heavy use” in today’s film usage standards.

Thirdly, Cosina can start production whenever it wishes.

warden · Sep 30, 2019

Henning Serger said:
Hello,
just a brief report about this event:
- it was a great success, the organisers from the Leica Store Wetzlar / Leica Akademie have been very satisfied with the response from the visitors
- about 500 participants in the lectures / workshops / real slide shows during the two days
- the Leica Store in Wetzlar (Leitz-Park, at the factory) starts selling film, too, to their customers soon
- the demand for the film-based Leica M cameras increased by another +20% in the last 12 months
- the response / interest / dedication from the partcipants results in so much questions and discussions after my lectures that there was no time left for eating and drinking for me over the two days
- confirmation from Kodak Alaris Germany that Ektachrome E100 in 120 is "in preparation" (no official introduction date yet)
- the absolute highlights have been the real slide shows (cross fading / dissolving with two Leica RT-m slide projectors) from famous nature photographer Norbert Rosing (who continues to also shoot transparencies; Velvia 50 being his preferred film); he presented a selection of his best shots from the last 30 years, really outstanding photographs; and presented in the unsurpassed quality of slide projection: this was really a "festival for the eyes" !!

Best regards,
Henning

That sounds like a great event. I would have enjoyed seeing that slide show! Thanks for sharing with us.

cmacd123 · Sep 30, 2019

there are some folks in Northern Europe who have been trying to keep older cameras repaired and out to use https://camerarescue.org/

Helios 1984 · Sep 30, 2019

cmacd123 said:
there are some folks in Northern Europe who have been trying to keep older cameras repaired and out to use https://camerarescue.org/

Found this reportage some time ago.

cmacd123 · Sep 30, 2019

Excellent! the idea is spreading it seems. Thank you! I did post a link to that video in a facebook camera interest group.

Henning Serger · Oct 1, 2019

Peter Schrager said:
Thank you Henning
Your posts,are always a welcome read
Peter

Thank you Peter.
I try to do my very best .

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Oct 1, 2019

guangong said:
I agree with Henning. At some point even the glut of used high quality film cameras will cease to exist and film cameras will again be manufactured. However, the film cameras of the future will most likely never achieve the same level of craftsmanship of the past.

I am much more optimistic concerning your second comment: Because I don't see any reason why new film cameras should be worse in craftmanship in comparison to current ones. Why should e.g. a Nikon F7 be worse built than a F6? Nikon has improved the F6 significantly compared to the F5 in more than 20 parameters, including mechanics (I know for sure, I am using both). And I don't see any reason why a F7 should not be a camera on the highest quality level. And why should a Nikon FM4a be worse than a FM3a?
Or why should a new film Leica be worse than their current film models?
Or a new Cosina/Voigtländer worse than their last ones?
Manufacturers know that their customers have certain expectations. And that they have to deliver to be successful.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Oct 1, 2019

Dali said:
If demand for film cameras increases, at one point we should reach the critical mass for manufacturers to propose new affordable film cameras.
The question is: When is it going to happen and who is willing to take a chance?

I think 3-5 years from now is a realistic assessment.
First models will probably be introduced in those categories in which used prices are high to very high. Because in these cases buying new is more attractive than buying used (less competition from the used market).

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Oct 1, 2019

jawarden said:
That sounds like a great event. I would have enjoyed seeing that slide show! Thanks for sharing with us.

You are welcome.
Yes, it was indeed a great event and an amazing slide show! I am in contact with Norbert Rosing and we are evaluating possibilities to present his outstanding slide-show in some other cities as well .

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Oct 1, 2019

cmacd123 said:
there are some folks in Northern Europe who have been trying to keep older cameras repaired and out to use https://camerarescue.org/

I've met them, we've had very long talks and I can say these guys are making an excellent job! They are extremely committed to their work and mission.
The film camera repair business is booming. And we even see the first very young technicians entering this business.

Best regards,
Henning

AgX · Oct 1, 2019

Here in Germany I see film camera repair workshops closing either due to lacking profit or to lacking successors.
(Exception: Olbricht with family successor in 2012)

A new german enterprise similar to Camerarescuers rejects sale offers for small-gauge cameras, projectors and editor or anxything else related to cine, enlargers and other darkroom stuff and plastic cameras....

We got retired and active camera repairers here as Apug fellows and they confirm the difficulties in running such business profitably.

Henning Serger · Oct 1, 2019

AgX said:
Here in Germany I see film camera repair workshops closing either due to lacking profit or to lacking successors.
(Exception: Olbricht with family successor in 2012)

Which ones have recently closed? Make a list! It will be an extremely short one......
One closed some time ago because of its age: And he gave all of his camera testing equipment and his spare parts to the new camera repair shop of "click&surr" in Berlin. And there a younger, very enthusiastic repair technician is continuing the work!
In contrast to you I visit and talk to the camera repair technicians. And all - with no exception - tell me that they have lots of work. Much much more than some years ago. And an increasing part of their business is repairing cameras for very young customers who have started using film recently.

Best regards,
Henning

Leica Experience Days 2019: Analogue Photography

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