Leica company in financial trouble

Mark Layne · Feb 26, 2005

Join LHSA and you will find repairpersons who will keep your Leica ticking like a clock for 20 years or more. I just had an M4 and 2 CL's done, a little over 200 ea.
Mark

rbarker · Feb 26, 2005

Jorge - you probably noticed I didn't mention the Rs, but I agree. If Leica had made the R line their state-of-the-art product, keeping even reasonably close to the innovations in other SLR lines, they would not be in the position they are. While the Rs have a dedicated base, and lots of great glass, most people who buy SLRs want all the current features.

c6h6o3 · Feb 26, 2005

Jorge said:
Also, to borrow Jim's example they refuse to make different "grades" of their cameras. For example, I own 5 Omega watches, and while not cheap, the ones that are battery operated with quartz movement are much cheaper than the perpetual automatic movement that are all mechanical.

My analogy only applies to very high end watches, and while Omega makes very good ones (I own a quartz Constellation which I wear quite often) they're not in the class I'm talking about: Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet, Jaeger-LeCoultre, Lange & Sohne, Breguet and certain Cartiers. Hip-hop stars and Silicon Valley nouveau riche don't wear those. They're purchased by people used to the smell of oiled walnut and Lafite Rothschild '45.

Lange & Sohne is an excellent example of a company resurrected to produce a product of the finest old world artistry of manufacture using the latest technology. Maybe Leitz can pull it off, too.

Jorge · Feb 26, 2005

c6h6o3 said:
My analogy only applies to very high end watches, and while Omega makes very good ones (I own a quartz Constellation which I wear quite often) they're not in the class I'm talking about: Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet, Jaeger-LeCoultre, Lange & Sohne, Breguet and certain Cartiers. Hip-hop stars and Silicon Valley nouveau riche don't wear those. They're purchased by people used to the smell of oiled walnut and Lafite Rothschild '45.

Lange & Sohne is an excellent example of a company resurrected to produce a product of the finest old world artistry of manufacture using the latest technology. Maybe Leitz can pull it off, too.

Yeah Jim, but you dont see a comercial line from Patek, Cartier etc. My example was used to explain a different marketig approach. I assure you, Leica will not survive if they try to follow the same marketing approach by the watch makers you mention. Those are status sympbols, cameras are rarely a status symbol...at least among rich people.

NikoSperi · Feb 27, 2005

rbarker said:
A $12,000 watch may have appeal to a newly-rich twenty-something video-game mogul, but that person may be more likely to buy a digi-whatsis than a Leica.

Hehe... you're probably correct in that assesment. Except with $&12,000 you're not coming even close to a Patek bottom of the line mechanical watch, new out of Geneva.

The principle may be correct. After all, Alpa still exists and is selling (presumably) some cameras - in the $20k range if I'm not mistaken.

c6h6o3 · Feb 27, 2005

Jorge said:
Yeah Jim, but you dont see a comercial line from Patek, Cartier etc.

Actually, Cartier has their second tier 'Must de Cartier' line where the watches are 20 micron plated instead of solid 18K, etc. They also have the Louis Cartier signature line whose pieces are sold only in Cartier boutiques. So there are really 3 levels.

Maybe that's the model-Leitz could manufacture a lower end line in the hopes that it would generate enough revenue to keep the no compromises cameras in limited production.

Anyway, I see your point and it is well taken. The Swatch Group, parent company of Omega, recently purchased Breguet lock, stock and barrel. They have even incorporated some the superb Nouvelle Lemania (Breguet's subsidiary ebauche manufacture) movements into some of the new Omega Speedmasters. Without the backing of Swatch's huge capital base, the atelier that A.L. Breguet (we're not worthy) founded in 1775 would surely have gone out of business forever. It's also interesting to note that Swatch is the world's largest manufacturer of quartz movements.

Maybe Leitz will find such an angel among the well heeled manufacturers of digital cameras. Let's all hope.

Dr.Kollig · Mar 5, 2005

Alpa

NikoSperi said:
. The principle may be correct. After all, Alpa still exists and is selling (presumably) some cameras - in the $20k range if I'm not mistaken.

It is just the Name Alpa, owner etc. are totally different. Like Voigtländer someone bought the rights of the name.

To be honest these new Alpas are really nice ....

Wolfram

lensworker · Mar 12, 2005

Leica may be sick,but it ain't dead just yet!!

Don't dig Leica's grave just yet! They are exploring ways to keep Leica camera viable; the other facets of the Leica company seem to be in better shape. I would expect that somehow, some way Leica will survive; they may have to do production on a special order basis or soething along those lines, but I can't see Leica camera closing its doors.

That having been said, now is the time to buy Leica for two reasons: 1. To help the company out, and 2. "Just in case." If Leica were to go down the tubes, the prices on Leica cameras and lenses would go thru the roof and end up somewhere in the ionosphere. I would expect prices to multiply by a factor of 3X or even 4X.

I'm going to get the new 50/1.4ASPH... Just in case!

garryl · Mar 12, 2005

I don't think we should worry until the "garage sale" sign goes up in front of the factory
entrance.

André E.C. · Mar 13, 2005

The romantic times of the 40`s, 50`s and 60`s are gone, a company who can`t reinvent itself, can`t compete with the Japanese all plastic tech wonders made in China or Taiwan.
Mechanical precision and beauty surely have a price, but come on, who is paying so much money for a Leica these days?
I wonder why Hasselblad made a partnership with Fuji for the H1!
Times have changed, Leica needs to change according.

Cheers

André

Tom Duffy · Mar 13, 2005

Andre,
I don't know how Leica could further improve their product and still keep it a Leica, rather then turning it into a high priced point and shoot with interchangable lenses. I doubt with even the demise of the Contax G2, there is much of a market for this type of camera. Leica has signficantly upgraded most of their lenses and introduced 2 new rangefinder bodies in the last 5 years. The M7 which logically incorporates every technical improvement they can fit into the M body and the MP, which appeals to the all mechanical crowd. Based on their limited resources, I can't fault Leica for its product development and marketing efforts.

For its particular niche, i.e., a very quiet rangefinder, with fast, sharp lenses, the Leica is still the best camera in its class. Most of its user base has gone away, lured by the call of digital. Photojournalists because they needed to. Amateurs for other reasons, some good, some bad.

The weakness of the dollar has hurt them badly, causing a rapid rise in the price of cameras and lenses, in one of their biggest markets.

I think the survival of Leica depends upon their ability to produce a digital version of their "M" camera. This would significantly increase their potential market, while keeping the best aspects of the Leica.

I'm also in agreement with those who have said it's premature to count Leica out. Their are a lot of people with really deep pockets who want to keep the brand and their equipment line alive.
Take care,
Tom

rjr · Mar 13, 2005

Looks like Leica Camera AG is starting a new business - "Industriegeschaeft", offering design, construction and production of small lots and prototypes on lenses, single lens elements etc to industrial customers:

http://www.leica-camera.de/imperia/md/content/pdf/industriegeschft/1.pdf

clogz · Mar 13, 2005

Also Leica now offer the possiblitity to have your camera custom made.

André E.C. · Mar 13, 2005

Tom,

good points you bought to the "table", but if you please, let me focus on this line of yours.
" I don't know how Leica could further improve their product and still keep it a Leica, rather then turning it into a high priced point and shoot with interchangable lenses".

What is then a digital "M"?

Leica and digital technology sounds absurd, and IMHO, that was precisely the biggest mistake of the Leica management.
This is a race, the Leica "horse" can`t win and shouldn`t even run.

Cheers

André

Woolliscroft · Mar 13, 2005

Juba said:
Tom,

Leica and digital technology sounds absurd, and IMHO, that was precisely the biggest mistake from the Leica management.

Cheers

André

Especially as the SLR hybrid is going to have a less than full frame sensor with all the implications that has for wide angle users like me.

David.

Flotsam · Mar 13, 2005

Juba said:
Leica and digital technology sounds absurd,

I thought the same thing when I heard that Porsche was building an SUV. I wonder how they are doing with that?

SLNestler · Mar 13, 2005

NikoSperi said:
Yes, it looks like Leica is just starting the painful process that Ilford seems to be coming out of.

What have you heard about Ilford?

Tom Duffy · Mar 13, 2005

Andre,
Even in a digital M, the best aspects of the Leica, those which separate it from any other rangerfinder on the market, i.e., its superb range/viewfinder, its quiet shutter, its phenomenal lenses will all survive and be a market differentiator. 95% of world is going digital. You don't have to, but let's acknowledge the reality of that. There must be a digital rangefinder Leica M or there will be no Leica, simple as that.
Take care,
Tom

Dave Parker · Mar 13, 2005

Tom Duffy said:
95% of world is going digital. You don't have to, but let's acknowledge the reality of that. There must be a digital rangefinder Leica M or there will be no Leica, simple as that.
Take care,
Tom

Tom as a manufacture of LF camera parts, that is working my butt off, all the time, I have to differ with your assesment of the situation, there are actually several areas of the world that digital sales are lagging and film camera sales are gaining again. Leica, does indeed need to change somethings, and get off the high horse that has maintained them over the last few decades, but I don't agree that the answer is digital, digital is a shallow solution to a long term problem that they have had..

Dave Parker
Satin Snow Ground Glass

Tom Duffy · Mar 13, 2005

Woolliscroft said:
Especially as the SLR hybrid is going to have a less than full frame sensor with all the implications that has for wide angle users like me.

David.

David,
I think this digital back is a useful product for those with a significant investment in Leica R lenses. All other things being equal, if I needed a digital camera I'd buy a Canon.

Leica isn't alone in its inability to use a full frame sensor. There is precisely one dslr with a full frame sensor, the $8,000 Canon. Parenthetically, Popular Photography had declared this month that it slightly edges out 100 speed color negative film. Seems to me to be a good arguement to buy a $300 film camera, instead.
Take care,
Tom

Flotsam · Mar 14, 2005

I don't know much about digital cameras but my friend has one and it shoots laser beams and infra red rays and has buttons that do all kinds of awesomely way cool stuff. I would have thought that quaint notions like a superb range/viewfinder, a quiet shutter, and phenomenal lenses would be passe to today's virtual photographers. Quality fit and construction doesn't go very far when a camera's technology is going to be outmoded in several months anyway. OTOH, You can slap a Leica badge on a Ham Sandwich and triple the price.

André E.C. · Mar 14, 2005

"Seems to me to be a good arguement to buy a $300 film camera, instead."

I fully agree Tom, my F100 cost me 1300 euros + 2000 euros of lenses covering a vast range of focal lengths, for that price I could get an M7+ a 50mm.
Is the F100 a bad camera? Are Nikkors bad lenses?
No, the F100 is a great camera and the Nikkors are excellent, therefore, is the quiet shutter, the lovely optics and superb craftmanship, enough to justify such a big gap in price?
Do really a Leica serve me well if I want to shoot some action photography?

Leica is overpriced!

Cheers

André

Tom Duffy · Mar 14, 2005

Juba said:
Is the F100 a bad camera? Are Nikkors bad lenses?

No and no.

Juba said:
No, the F100 is a great camera and the Nikkors are excellent, therefore, is the quiet shutter, the lovely optics and superb craftmanship, enough to justify such a big gap in price?

Yes, for me it was.

Juba said:
Do really a Leica serve me well if I want to shoot some action photography?

No, for that I borrow my wife's 80-200mm zoom and mount it on my $300 SLR. I'm always amazed how good modern autofocus is. But a modern SLR is not the best "people" camera; a Leica M is...
Take care,
Tom

steve · Mar 14, 2005

"There is precisely one dslr with a full frame sensor, the $8,000 Canon."

Unless, of course, you don't count the Kodak SLR-n or SLR-c which both have full frame sensors...

roteague · Mar 14, 2005

Tom Duffy said:
Leica isn't alone in its inability to use a full frame sensor. There is precisely one dslr with a full frame sensor, the $8,000 Canon. Parenthetically, Popular Photography had declared this month that it slightly edges out 100 speed color negative film.

Based upon calculations I have seen:

Velvia:
36mm x 150 LP/mm = 5400 line pairs horizontally
24mm x 150 LP/mm = 3600 line pairs vertically.

This represents a total of 5400 x 3600 = 19,440,000 pixels.

Still a lot more than all the DSLR's out there.

Leica company in financial trouble

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