Leica /Books/Online/ thoughts?

rmjranch · Oct 8, 2017

Interested in trying my hand in a film Leica. Budget open. I shoot Nikon FM2n, F5, F6 and Hasselblad, plus a "Texas" Leica. Just interested as a walk around travel camera. All outdoor mostly sunny days. Ektar 100 and Acros 100.
Which camera and lens (35 or 50mm) would you recommend? Just need a basic camera with simple meter. If I do not like, will just sell and take my loss. What books or websites, besides this fine site, would you suggest to understand what I should look for. Thanking you in advance.

chip j · Oct 9, 2017

TAO of Leica site

TerryMcC · Oct 9, 2017

rmjranch said:
Interested in trying my hand in a film Leica. Budget open. I shoot Nikon FM2n, F5, F6 and Hasselblad, plus a "Texas" Leica. Just interested as a walk around travel camera. All outdoor mostly sunny days. Ektar 100 and Acros 100.
Which camera and lens (35 or 50mm) would you recommend? Just need a basic camera with simple meter. If I do not like, will just sell and take my loss. What books or websites, besides this fine site, would you suggest to understand what I should look for. Thanking you in advance.

I've found my M7 fits the bill. Auto when needed, and I found it more "friendly" than the M6 for me. An M4-P would be cheaper but has no meter. A 50mm can be bought relatively cheaply (in Leica World), or use one of the many Voigtlander lenses.

darkosaric · Oct 9, 2017

Since you already have super equipment - top Nikon bodies and Hasselblad --> Summicron is the only lens you should go for. Body: M6 is cheap and not so old, I use M3 more often, but M6 is newer and more reliable when buying only one body.
So, I recommend classic M6 + any 35mm or 50mm Summicron .

blockend · Oct 9, 2017

If you're a 50mm shooter I'd go for a Barnack or an FSU copy, but 90% of Leicaphiles will disagree. If you're not a 50mm person your preferred focal length will determine which frame lines and consequently which M body to go for.

guangong · Oct 9, 2017

I second blockend. A ltm Leica is easy to carry around the neck or, especially with a 50mm collapsible lens, to put in a pocket. Leitz even sold a purse like case to carry camera in pocket and nice to have if you can find one. I am convinced that my 82 year old IIIa will just keep going on forever. Same with my M3, M4 and (perhaps) my M5. I wouldn’t bet on an M6 or later M.

Ko.Fe. · Oct 9, 2017

Here is no cheap Leica with SLRish meter to try to, don't understand and sell.
If you have made in Japan RF MF already, why not get another made in Japan SLRish RF?
Bessa R is cute, light camera, not as expensive as Leica, meters TTL, takes less expensive LTM lenses.
Since you want it on color it doesn't have to be Leica at all. Cheap (by RF gear prices) Color Skopar 35 will do it with modern and clean glass. Nokton 50 1.5 LTM will do nicely as well. Also fresh and properly coated glass.

I have tried two Summicrons 50 on color film. Not worth of the current price, IMO.

4season · Oct 9, 2017

If it has to be a Leica product and "A simple camera with simple meter" than your choices are the M6 and M6TTL. No particular reason to favor the latter unless you plan on using flash or using alongside digital M bodies which have similar shutter speed dial arrangement. Otherwise, the original is slightly smaller.

Lens: Actually if I were doing it today, I might consider a 40mm instead of a 35 and a 50. The old Leitz/Minolta 40/2.0 is a gem, but there are newer worthy alternatives out there as wel from others makers like Cosina. The Leitz/Minolta struck me as having a "punchy" look in the center, not especially sharp in the corners, but it was a look which seldom failed to please. Perhaps the current 35 and 50mm Summarit lenses are also worth a closer look. I am especially fond of compact and lightweight optics, can you tell?

Overrated: The 4th generation 35/2 Summicron "King of Bokeh": Last of the non-aspherical 35/2 lenses. I wasn't especially wowed by the out of focus rendition, thought it was sort of soft overall and not in a way that particularly charmed me. Also 50/2.8 collapsible Elmar (the modern one). It's okay but it's just a Tessar-type lens and I thought the collapsing barrel was of no particular benefit.

The suggestion to get a non-Leica system is also a good one, but I am probably older and mostly over red-dot fever, but you may not be

Ko.Fe. · Oct 9, 2017

Oh, forgot to mention. Nothing beats rangefinder forum, if you want to ask more about RF gear. IMO.
Cameraquest has good articles, but navigation is so-so.
Lenses http://www.overgaard.dk/pdf/Leica-M-Lenses-Their-Soul-and-Secrets_en.pdf

BrianVS · Oct 10, 2017

The Leica M5 and CL (compact camera) also have built in meters, but look for one that has been recently serviced. Cost is less than the M6 and M7. The CL is a compact camera, my meter still works.

Do you have a budget in mind for Cameras and lenses? Do you have a "preferred look", vintage, modern, sharpest-of-the-Sharp?

With a Leica camera you have 85 years of lenses to choose from. Lenses from a $10 Industar to a $10,000 Noctilux.

As Barnack Leicas were mentioned, The Leica Manual by Morgan and Lester is a must-have...

http://archive.org/search.php?query=leica AND collection:universallibrary

and free.

rmjranch · Oct 10, 2017

What is the approximate cost for an M6, if in good condition, for a CLA? How long will the wait be to have it cleaned? Just a rough guess.
Thanks

Steve Bellayr · Oct 10, 2017

You can pick up a Leica M6, which is my recommendation, for around $1200 from almost any dealer and it will not need a CLA. Personally, I recommend the 50mm Summicron V.3. There is a lot of discussion about which Summicron is best but at this level IMHO it is the photographer not the lens. Irwin Puts has some nice essays on his site. There are a good number of books on Leica and photography but from what you list as experience with cameras I don't think you will have any problem using the camera. The only problems that new Leica users incur is loading the camera so watch the remind knob. It should move every time you advance the film. The second is to remove the lens cap. You will be just fine. Moving from Nikon to Leica lenses you should see a marked improvement in the quality of the image, especially in black and white.

BrianVS · Oct 10, 2017

Youxin Ye is good, reasonable, and good turnaround time. I've read that due to his workload, it's about 8 weeks. Much faster than Leica New Jersey.

http://www.yyecamera.com/price_m_body.html

Buying from a dealer- you should be able to get information on the service records, and get a warranty.

rmjranch · Oct 10, 2017

Thanks everyone. Decided NOT to go with a Leica. Too expensive with the possible small increase in quality. Leica M6 and lens maybe $3,000 to $4,000. If it need a CLA, all mechanical cameras need a CLA, at least $200 and 2 MONTHS, really. My Nikon FM2n can be bought for a few hundred dollars, $100 for a CLA, One week turnaround, $400 for a new Nikon lens. I can afford the Leica but do not think my photos will be much better. Beside if someone steals my FM2n not a big deal, my Leica, NOT happy. Thanks for all the information.

BrianVS · Oct 10, 2017

That's why I suggested setting a budget. With 85 years of lenses to choose from, made by many vendors- I would suggest a Voigtlander 50mm F1.5 Aspheric, Leica Thread Mount version, Black, with an M-Mount adapter. The Voigtlander lens is Aspheric- try to find that with a Nikkor name on it for under $1000. Mine was $350 in EX+ with a Voigtlander M-Mount adapter. It even uses 52mm filters, so I have an entire set of Nikkor filters for use with B&W. My M3, CLA on M3, and Voigtlander lens cost me much less than a Nikkor 58/1.4 Aspheric lens. I have a lot of Nikon gear. The Voigtlander 50/1.1 runs under $900 new and is faster than anything in the Nikon line-up. Compares with the 50/1.2 Ais, but has the edge on speed. The 50/1.5 Nokton is sharp and well corrected, the Black 35/1.7 Aspheric Ultron in LTM also ran me ~$300 with the adapter. Look for a recently CLA'd M6, ~$1200, 50/1.5 Nokton in LTM with Adapter, and 35/1.7 Ultron in LTM with adapter, should be under $2000. The "rangefinder" experience is also about the lenses, with the optical engineer not being hampered with having to clear an SLR mirror. The latter requires that optical compromises be made in the design of focal lengths shorter than ~55mm. Cosina/Voigtlander has done a fine job of bringing top quality optics to the Leica world for a reasonable price.

What shop do you use for the $100 CLA on the FM2n? KEH skyrocketed their repair prices, Essex is gone. There are fewer and fewer shops performing repair and CLA work these days on older gear.

Ko.Fe. · Oct 10, 2017

Brian, I already wrote about those lenses, but OP is not listening...

It is hard to step into the RF world if you limited only to Nikon. Well, actually, next to new, fresh, and made like F Nikon RF is possible and under 2000 and some are liking it over Leica. But, well, why write here if OP is OK with SLR...

I have Nikon SLR, it is collecting dust. Need to get rid of it.

BrianVS · Oct 11, 2017

old_camera_ad_scans_03_large by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr

nikon_SP_Kit by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr

My original SP's are holding up well. I've compared the finder with an SP-2005, could not tell them apart. My pair have titanium shutters, the new one is cloth. The SP with 5cm F1.4 and 3.5cm F2.5 would be well under $2000 these days, prices are way down from 10 years ago. Prices for Leica mount lenses are way-up. Remember $100 Summicrons Collapsibles and $200 Rigid Summicrons? Less of a selection of lenses for Nikon RF's, I've shimmed Sonnars, Jupiters, and Helios-103's for Nikon RF mount. Also converted a couple of 50mm lenses to it using left over Sonnar mounts. Like a collapsible I-61L/D and rigid Tessar 5cm F3.5.

I took a look at the price of the AF-Nikkor 58/1.4 asph- cheaper to buy the M3 with 50/1.5 Nokton. I'm a big Nikon fan- but that 58/1.4 is an embarrassment. They could have at least made it an F1.2, or priced it much more reasonably.

blockend · Oct 11, 2017

rmjranch said:
Thanks everyone. Decided NOT to go with a Leica. Too expensive with the possible small increase in quality. Leica M6 and lens maybe $3,000 to $4,000. If it need a CLA, all mechanical cameras need a CLA, at least $200 and 2 MONTHS, really. My Nikon FM2n can be bought for a few hundred dollars, $100 for a CLA, One week turnaround, $400 for a new Nikon lens. I can afford the Leica but do not think my photos will be much better. Beside if someone steals my FM2n not a big deal, my Leica, NOT happy. Thanks for all the information.

If you want to try a rangefinder, you could do a lot worse than a Kiev 4/4A. Mine was £20 with 35mm Jupiter 12 lens. Both are in lovely condition. It's a copy of a pre-war Contax II, in fact it is a Contax II produced in Ukraine, and the Jupiter 12 is a copy of the Carl Zeiss 35mm 2.8 Biogon. The lens compares with any Leica of a similar period. It's a non-retrofocual design, sharp, contrasty with low distortion. It's only weakness is a tendency to flare into the sun, which some people think is a benefit! I like mine as much as any camera and lens I've owned, including Leica.

Jim Jones · Oct 11, 2017

BrianVS said:
. . . As Barnack Leicas were mentioned, The Leica Manual by Morgan and Lester is a must-have...

http://archive.org/search.php?query=leica AND collection:universallibrary

and free.

BrianVS said:
. . . As Barnack Leicas were mentioned, The Leica Manual by Morgan and Lester is a must-have...

The Leica Manual was published in many editions for at least 30 years. Late editions were by Morgan & Morgan. The Leica owner should get one that is late enough to cover his model. The early editions are a treasure trove of arcane information. I have several other books on the Leica system that sometimes add to the Leica Manual, but cannot replace it.

darkosaric · Oct 12, 2017

rmjranch said:
Thanks everyone. Decided NOT to go with a Leica. Too expensive with the possible small increase in quality. Leica M6 and lens maybe $3,000 to $4,000. If it need a CLA, all mechanical cameras need a CLA, at least $200 and 2 MONTHS, really. My Nikon FM2n can be bought for a few hundred dollars, $100 for a CLA, One week turnaround, $400 for a new Nikon lens. I can afford the Leica but do not think my photos will be much better. Beside if someone steals my FM2n not a big deal, my Leica, NOT happy. Thanks for all the information.

LTM Leica with Elmar 5cm f3.5 costs around 200€, Leica does not have to be expensive. I have Nikons and Leicas - it is not the same, 2 different beasts.
If you are happy - don't buy it - don't buy if because you don't want to - not because it is too expensive, because it is not.

With old Elmar you can make one meter size prints without any visible grain, so the quality of cheapest Leitz lens is more than enough:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/big-roll-and-big-prints.154430/

As also Ko.Fe. told --> since I have my Leica's - my Nikon's are seldom used. The only thing that keeps them running from time to time are beautiful nikkor 105/2.5 lenses that I have.

E. von Hoegh · Oct 13, 2017

+1 on

blockend said:
If you want to try a rangefinder, you could do a lot worse than a Kiev 4/4A. Mine was £20 with 35mm Jupiter 12 lens. Both are in lovely condition. It's a copy of a pre-war Contax II, in fact it is a Contax II produced in Ukraine, and the Jupiter 12 is a copy of the Carl Zeiss 35mm 2.8 Biogon. The lens compares with any Leica of a similar period. It's a non-retrofocual design, sharp, contrasty with low distortion. It's only weakness is a tendency to flare into the sun, which some people think is a benefit! I like mine as much as any camera and lens I've owned, including Leica.

Plus 1 on the Kiev. I have the 4, 4a, and a '36 Contax II /collapsible Sonnar; Jupiter 12,35/2.8 Jupiter 8,50/2 Jupiter 9,85/2 Helios 103,53/1.8 and a 13.5cm/3.5 Nikkor in Contax mount. In use a good Kiev is indistinguishable from the Contax, lenses interchange and couple accurately, and the rangefinder is the best I've ever seen on a 35mm camera.
The Helios 103 is a real sleeper lens, I stripped mine and baked some flat black paint on to the aperture blades which made a big difference in flare & contrast.

blockend · Oct 13, 2017

E. von Hoegh said:
+1 on

Plus 1 on the Kiev. I have the 4, 4a, and a '36 Contax II /collapsible Sonnar; Jupiter 12,35/2.8 Jupiter 8,50/2 Jupiter 9,85/2 Helios 103,53/1.8 and a 13.5cm/3.5 Nikkor in Contax mount. In use a good Kiev is indistinguishable from the Contax, lenses interchange and couple accurately, and the rangefinder is the best I've ever seen on a 35mm camera.
The Helios 103 is a real sleeper lens, I stripped mine and baked some flat black paint on to the aperture blades which made a big difference in flare & contrast.

I also have a Jupiter 8 and a few Industar lenses, all M39. The J8 is too soft for my tastes wide open (everything look like a Sarah Moon photo), but sharpens up nicely a stop or two down. Would like a Contax bayonet Helios 103! I also have some Zenit SLR M39 lenses, different back focus to their rangefinders, but no body to put them on. If I was the OP I wouldn't be put off the rangefinder experience by cult bodies and bespoke lens prices, you probably won't see any different, and you can buy 15 Kievs for the price of a Leica CLA!

E. von Hoegh · Oct 13, 2017

blockend said:
I also have a Jupiter 8 and a few Industar lenses, all M39. The J8 is too soft for my tastes wide open (everything look like a Sarah Moon photo), but sharpens up nicely a stop or two down. Would like a Contax bayonet Helios 103! I also have some Zenit SLR M39 lenses, different back focus to their rangefinders, but no body to put them on. If I was the OP I wouldn't be put off the rangefinder experience by cult bodies and bespoke lens prices, you probably won't see any different, and you can buy 15 Kievs for the price of a Leica CLA!

Contax/Kiev bayonet is the only mount the H-103 comes in. They're available for US$30 or less. Rather industrial in appearance but a great lens.

blockend · Oct 13, 2017

E. von Hoegh said:
Contax/Kiev bayonet is the only mount the H-103 comes in. They're available for US$30 or less. Rather industrial in appearance but a great lens.

I'll track one down : )

edit: Helios 103 on its way.

Ko.Fe. · Oct 13, 2017

Kiev or any FSU is the last RF I would recommend to anyone, especially unknown person.
It is not about FSU gear itself, but its current condition. 99.99% FSU lenses and cameras needs CLA. Just because they were not in use for decades.
And problem is here is no eBay or specialized on FSU sellers who actually sell after CLA. Many of them will write what they did, but it is lie.
So, for Kiev here is only one who sell after CLA, known on Internet as Oleg.
But if you just buy it off the e-bay here is no FSU RF after CLA.
They just copy and paste same text about CLA, without even knowledge what it actually means.

Leica /Books/Online/ thoughts?

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