Leica Barnak IIIF cameras

[cliveh]

Can someone explain to me the difference between a red and black dial Barnak Camera?

 

[jimjm]

Red dial IIIf bodies were made later, from #615000 on up. Other than cosmetic differences, the shutter was improved and the shutter speed progression was different: T, 1, 1/2, 1/5, 1/10, 1/15, 1/25, 1/50, 1/75, 1/100, 1/200, 1/500, 1/1000 & B. Some of the later RD bodies also had a modified film rewind mechanism. The self-timer was introduced during the run of the RD bodies, although BD bodies could be retrofitted with the self-timer by the factory. Otherwise, either one in good condition is a great shooter!

 

[cliveh]

Red dial IIIf bodies were made later, from #615000 on up. Other than cosmetic differences, the shutter was improved and the shutter speed progression was different: T, 1, 1/2, 1/5, 1/10, 1/15, 1/25, 1/50, 1/75, 1/100, 1/200, 1/500, 1/1000 & B. Some of the later RD bodies also had a modified film rewind mechanism. The self-timer was introduced during the run of the RD bodies, although BD bodies could be retrofitted with the self-timer by the factory. Otherwise, either one in good condition is a great shooter!

Does that mean red dial is an improvement to black dial?

 

[jimjm]

I guess Leitz thought the changes were needed, although if I was picking between either one I'd get the one in best condition. I think the RD model tends to sell for a bit more.

 

[BAC1967]

Does that mean red dial is an improvement to black dial?

They upgraded the shutter, so it is improved, but if you have a well serviced one you probably won’t notice the difference. I have a IIIf red dial with a self timer that started out as a IIf black dial before it was converted by Leica. I don’t know if the shutter was changed in that conversion but since it has the newer shutter speeds that may have been done.

 

[Hassasin]

Given the age of these things, no there is no difference, but "red dial" is usually used to "up the ante" on what is being offered. Shutter speeds by themselves make no difference, although one set may look more modern than the other.

But I will say that red dial does kind of look nicer, I mean that dial does.

 

[Hassasin]

And the most confusing part for the Barnack is the factory upgrades made later, effectively converting an older body to one that could not be told apart from "as built" one. Earlier upgrades to flash synch/socket were easier to see as instead of flash delay engravings being done directly on the top plate, they were on a plate screwed on under the shutter dial.

 

[Mr Flibble]

There were various modification over the production life of the IIIf.
And a number of them were not limited to just the BD or the RD, but had some bleed-over between these two 'types'
The change of the shutter speed sequence wasn't purely done in the RD if I recall correctly.
The number of screws around the top cover is reduced over time as well, ending with no screws holding the top cover onto the shell directly.

I'm sure this has to do with using up old stocks of parts first when a new standard was set.

Agreeing with JimJm that either is a great shooter.

 

[Hassasin]

There were various modification over the production life of the IIIf.
And a number of them were not limited to just the BD or the RD, but had some bleed-over between these two 'types'
The change of the shutter speed sequence wasn't purely done in the RD if I recall correctly.
The number of screws around the top cover is reduced over time as well, ending with no screws holding the top cover onto the shell directly.

I'm sure this has to do with using up old stocks of parts first when a new standard was set.

Agreeing with JimJm that either is a great shooter.

IIIF had one piece top, all previous models had separate screw on top "hat". With modifications they did change, apparently, the top so one basically could not tell apart mod vs. as-built, but also SN seems to have been retained as per original build. Going by SN a say IIIc pops up, but with all "new" features it clearly no longer was.

I have not seen a non red-dial with 1/25 starting short shutter sequence, 1/30 was black dial, 1/25 was red.

 

[chuckroast]

Otherwise, either one in good condition is a great shooter!

I concur with this. Buy one for condition rather than the BD/RD distinction. I've had a RD for years and just had it overhauled by YYE and it's a terrific shooter. The M bodies are more convenient to look through and focus, but the IIIf is the ideal "wandering around" camera, particularly with a collapsible Elmar or Summicron. I carry mine when I am skiing or just randomly hiking around and don't to haul a 120, 4x5, or larger 35mmm around with me.

 

[JerseyDoug]

One practical difference is that the fastest shutter sync speed for the BD with electronic flash is 1/30. For the RD it is 1/50.