Legendary Qualities of Discontinued Papers

I, too, loved the deep rich blacks of Velour. And Dupont's Varigam was good too.

I believe the silver crunch brought on by the Hunts trying to corner the silver market back in the early nineteen eighties focussed our attention.

A story: when I started grad school in 1968, I made a bunch of prints of my favorite negs. On Kodak Medalist, partially to use up paper I did not like.
About 1990, my wife and I donated cases of books to the local library. Soon thereafter, a heavy manilla envelope was forwarded to me from my parent's address in another state. Those Medalist prints had been in a book purchased at the library sale. They had my address stamped on the back.
I had forgotten about them years before
My wife, whom I had met in grad school, now looking at the prints, recognized some of the images. Then she remarked how beautiful the prints were. I said, "Yeah, they are; and I did not know how to print then!" I work hard to get prints as nice looking as those I made not knowing what I was doing, in a temporary darkroom. It must have been the paper.

Anscojohn, Mount Vernon, Virginia, USA

Charles Webb said:

Hmmmmm,
I did not see DuPont Velour Black mentioned. It was was in tremendous demand through out the world when it disappeared, never to be seen again. Nothing at that time was even close to it. None of the revered manufacturers in our world could come close to being able to duplicate it.

I am still in possession of nearly 500 sheets of DuPont's VB in 8x10 100 sheets boxes G2 and 3, a few Red boxes and the later green ones in my freezer, (Not for sale at any price) don't have a clue whether it is still good or not since I don't have the fortitude to try it. Some one said that a replacement for most any paper ever created could be found, Perhaps so.


Charlie...........................................

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If you ever get the nerve to try it and find it hard to work with I'd gladly take it off your hands. But don't let it go to waste, being afraid to try it only gauremtees it will be tossed out later.

Randy

This isn't just a photographic phenomena, it applies to all consumer products. I blame the modern sales/marketing strategy of most large companies - and the fact that small companies (who usually have a different approach) end up being part of the large companies if they are succesful. The mind set seems to be, what sells the most? Right, forget the small margin stuff, lets muscle in and get a *market share*.

So, 80% of the population want lemon washing up liqued, only 20% want something different. Ten different companies all cut each others throats to get a share of the 80% and it is impossible to buy anything else...
(ok, it's just a hypothetical example, I'm sure you can buy strawberry washing moose ;-)

Years ago, when there were still photographic shops selling paper (!), where I lived you could walk into any supplier and buy paper from from Ilford, Kodak, Barclay, Kentmere, The shops own brand (Jessops or Jacobs) and maybe a couple of others. But only variable contrast plastic coated paper in 3.5 by 5 and 8 by 10 .
Maybe six or eight brands of the SAME THING. :-(
Try and buy a different size, or fixed grade or fibre based and it was nearly always special order...

Maybe now that the big companies are washing their hands of analogue photography perhaps the marketing men will go away and leave us alone!!!

It would be great to get back to the situation in we had in the late 19th or early 20th Centuary, where photographers were served by hundreds of little companies whos atitude seemed to be "what can I make that no one else is making at the moment" rather than "what is the one thing everyone else making so that I can take market share off them?"

[Irony]
This is the situation in the much healthier but related area of arts and crafts. Go into an art shop (which are still thriving, most towns have at least one) and it is crammed full of lots of wonderful stuff from lots of small companies.

It's all niche stuff, the market for oil painting, sketching with charcoal or copper etching must be tiny compared with, say, 35mm colour photography at its peak a few years ago, but its advocates are probably better served.
[/Irony]

Maybe Ilford are showing the way with their ULF run. Photographic paper keeps well if properly stored, maybe some of the companies should experiment with batch production, changing the surface, emulsion colour and base colour every few thousand boxes. I'm sure that is how they must have done it years ago.

I have a Kentmere catalogue from a long time ago and the range of surface textures is staggering.
Anyone remember Velvet Stipple?

Steve

Well I for one would not mind if some smaller companies started making a variety of unique surfaces, I'd certainly like to see surfaces like Cykora Silk made new. But basically I have noticed that, anything say within the last 30 or 40 years or so, you'd have a fun time finding it if it wasn't glossy, matte, or luster/perl. I just wish companies now days didn't do everything at the skin of the teeth, its like just because 80% to 90% of the market standard is say glossy, doesn't mean they have to just stop producing everything else and just concentrate on glossy. That would be like clearing up half the McD drive thru menu because not as many people order say a Arch deluxe as a Big Mac, people do like variety and money can still be made even if its not as high %. It's the same thing with emulsions and such. I think the main culprit is the cost cutting too, not just market demand, to get stuff cheaper and cheaper, and more profitable for the big guys, a lot of it is mainstreamed, standardized, automated, and anything thats 'different' is bad to this cheap, mainstream labor, kinda like how 'super slides' while still in a 35mm style mount cost much more even if they just cropped it because you can't just stick it in the machine and batch it with the rest.

More companies doesn't necessarily indicate a better(in quality terms) choice. Merely a bigger one. Remember how many car and TV companies of very variable quality there were in their respective early days?

If there isn't a big enough market for various products then they(the products) shrink, because they can't be produced for a profit at a price the market will bear. This is likely to be the case if there is one company or 10. If the economies of scale dictate that the market cannot sustain all the companies then they shrink.

Our wish list for Ilford is clearly very large. Maybe we better tell Simon what we'd be willing to pay for such products. We might not like what he'd tell us in return about what he'd need to charge us.

Hard as it is to swallow its a case of "no pay, no get". A pity.

Now where's my wallet ? Or maybe Zen book if I can't afford it.

pentaxuser

Zone VI Brilliant worked well for me (in Amidol), but I know some didn't like it. I agree on the Potriga Rapid, and I would add Kodabromide, though it was mostly gone by the time I started printing. I wish I had been able to try Dupont Varigam.

kb244 said:

... But basically I have noticed that, anything say within the last 30 or 40 years or so, you'd have a fun time finding it if it wasn't glossy, matte, or luster/perl. I just wish companies now days didn't do everything at the skin of the teeth, its like just because 80% to 90% of the market standard is say glossy, doesn't mean they have to just stop producing everything else and just concentrate on glossy. ...

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Kodak actually tried marketing both black and white and color papers in C (cream white, luster smooth, black and white only), E white, luster, fine grained), K (white, high luster, fine grain), and Y (white, luster, silk) surfaces fairly recently. They still had the means to make them before they shut down the coating facilities in Rochester, and perhaps after. It just didn't work. The demand was not 10 to 20 percent but more like 0.5 percent. The E surface had a following for a short while, and color negative paper in that surface was available for a couple of years. Although the Y surface used to be a favorite of wedding photographers, it fell flat when reintroduced.

Roger Hicks said:

1 You can learn to get great results from almost anything

2 In your youth you got the occasional lucky hit

2 minus 1 = THEY DON'T MAKE GREAT PAPER ANY MORE

1 minus 2 = GET OVER IT

Not invariable formulae but probably at least half of all whinges.

Cheers,

R.

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I agree and disagree. I am not old enough to have used many legendary papers, however I do feel there are big differences in the results I get. For me PWT is not neccessarily a legend yet, but I got better results for me on this paper than Ilford WT for example. I get better results on Agfa fibre than Ilford too. I think part of the issue is that people for whatever reason, click with certain papers. I am sure it is a combo of film, dev technique, enlarger head as well but also the way we print. Of course we have to get over it but it can take a long time to get to grips with a paper you have consistently failed to get impressive prints from, irrespective of how well others get on with it. I know one printer who produces incredible glow and depth from Ilford MG FB. The greater the variety of papers the more likelihood you will find one that meshes nicely with the everything else you do. Some papers seem more flexible than others and bang out decent images no matter which film, dev etc. This for me is the frustration. I have rarely had prints from Ilford paper that I am really impressed with but know it can be done.....and in no way do I blame the paper. Its like TMAX100 film. I hate the stuff, but have one print on my wall that I adore for its depth and glow. As you say, we have to move on and just make it work. Whats the alternative; inkjets?

I have not seen any of the John Sexton Ansel Adams edition prints (the ones ones at $200 or so on 10x8 Ilford Paper. I suspect they are bloody good and would love to see one to show me what can be done with todays non-magical papers.

Ian Grant said:

They had some in Henry's in Toronto when I was last there.

As Peter says Ilford's very active, here's a current link Warmtone Fibre Base

Ian

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Try llford Galerie. We need more users to keep it alive - of all the 50+ different papers I've used this is the most consistently great. The difference between graded and MG has to be seen to be believed.

I have never used the Gallerie and look fwd to trying it.

Ole said:

Try llford Galerie. We need more users to keep it alive - of all the 50+ different papers I've used this is the most consistently great. The difference between graded and MG has to be seen to be believed.

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The graded paper I believe is called Ilfospeed instead. And I guess one nice thing about a graded paper is you know for sure exactly what grade of contrast, and consistent on a finer level than variable contrast paper, or so it seems.

Karl,

Ilfospeed is graded RC paper. Ilfobrom Galerie is graded FB.

As you said it's marvellously consistent, yet flexible enough that the contrast can be adjusted at least a full grade by changing the development. Graded paper also has a straighter HD curve, which translates to a more even rendition of midtones.

I learned printing on graded (Agfa Brovira), then used VC for many years, and am now returning to graded. Oddly enough I find that the more difficult negatives are far easier to print on Galerie G2 than on any kind of VC!

Ole said:

...llford Galerie...We need more users to keep it alive... The difference between graded and MG has to be seen to be believed.

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I enthusiastically endorse that!

Ole said:

Karl,

Ilfospeed is graded RC paper. Ilfobrom Galerie is graded FB.

As you said it's marvellously consistent, yet flexible enough that the contrast can be adjusted at least a full grade by changing the development. Graded paper also has a straighter HD curve, which translates to a more even rendition of midtones.

I learned printing on graded (Agfa Brovira), then used VC for many years, and am now returning to graded. Oddly enough I find that the more difficult negatives are far easier to print on Galerie G2 than on any kind of VC!

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I learn new things every day ( bout ilfospeed = RC , Ilfobrom Galerie = FB)

I've recently started using some old stock of Agfa Brovira 5x7 #6 (I got a print in my gallery), technically the first graded paper I tried, despite being as old as it was I could consistently expect the contrast levels and such. I'd almost imagine due to aging it probably got knocked from a 6 to more like a 4

Sal Santamaura said:

I enthusiastically endorse that!

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As would I, shame I can't really convince the store I work for to stock anything other than kodak color paper, or ilford multigrade IV RC and FB paper. Course I guess it would make sense if people actually bought from a small store rather than being whiny about it not being in stock and not wanting to order it even though would take just as much time to order it online.

What I miss now

I personally miss Kodak Fine-Art.
I have made some peculiar toning jobs with it which finally ended in getting olive deep blacks and weird unspeakable lights of some mix of violet and rose. THIS was true and unpredictable photography experience. I can almost remember the procedure but can't find the paper anymore. It hurts me to think that I will never be able to try it one more time.

Having tested a bunch of papers against each other several years ago, I agree with Roger Hicks. There are wonderful papers out there, and you can make anything work sometimes it just takes a little more effort to make the best print. Well, that's OK, I become a better printer that way.

We need to remember that you can match the paper to the subject, and some work better than others. Forte (sadly) was a consistent winner in my tests using a landscape negative, but Forte made Beloved Hillary look awful. Bergger and Seagull made Hillary glow, but their landscaper prints weren't quite as nice as Forte. It pays to really know the materials.

I also agree that Ilford Galerie is uniformly wonderful. It ranked consistently at or near the top in my tests. It still got beat by Forte, a VC paper, so I disagree that graded papers are superior. Sadly, Kodak asked me to test Polycontrast IV RC, and it almost beat Galerie! It was wonderful, it was RC, and it's gone.

Then Michael Smith printed my test landscape negative on Azo with amidol. Game over.

Those interested can download pdfs of those old articles for free from www.circleofthesunproductions.com. Stale, but still somewhat useful.

Interesting thread full of memories of magical surfaces, textures and print colours that are fondly missed. I too have favourites from days gone by, Agfa Record Rapid, Brovira and Portriga together with Ilford Ilfabrom were the graded papers that I learned to print on. In later years I discovered Kodak Ektalure loved it and still have a few hundred 16" x 20" sheets to use.

However, I agree with Roger. I believe that a good print can be made on any paper with just a little practice and patience from the printer in getting to understand the characteristics of the paper and matching the paper to the final image that you wish to see. In my opinion modern papers are just as good and perhaps even better and more versitile than the older papers but they are different so I just get on and make prints with what is available.

With regard to comparisions; when I compare a Record Rapid print with a modern Ilford Warmtone print, both seleniumed, the main difference I see is in the surface finish. Record Rapid Gloss changed depending on the speed of drying, if dried slowly it took on a semi gloss/matt finish which was quite beautiful with certain images, faster drying gave the glossy unglazed look that is typical of todays papers.

Thanks for the thread, it brought back many memories but no regrets at what has been lost.

Old Ilfoborm

A friend has given me a few unopened packets of Ilforbrom. They are n grades 1,4 and 5.,No idea of age, but the packets bear stamps 26A 7369, 26B 8056, 26C 7091, 28C 7996 18E. I had thought of using Ilford MG developer with some benzotriazole. Any suggestions?

mjc said:

A friend has given me a few unopened packets of Ilforbrom. They are n grades 1,4 and 5.,No idea of age, but the packets bear stamps 26A 7369, 26B 8056, 26C 7091, 28C 7996 18E. I had thought of using Ilford MG developer with some benzotriazole. Any suggestions?

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The benzotriazole ought to do it, if the paper is salvagable at all.

I could careless what was made in the pass. They are dead and gone. What I want are outstanding graded fiber papers with no brighters, 0 to 4 or 1 to 4 that are premium weight, evenly spaced, fast printing speed, bromide. And if some one could come up with the same outstanding quality of Agfa Insigma fiber paper

For the manufacturers: You can offer a package of 20 or 25 sheets of graded paper 0 to 4 or 1 to 4 in a box. Cut down the 25 to 15 sheets for small packages. For the larger ones make 30 sheets per box. If you have to increase the price by 15% so be it. I really don't care as long as I get premium quality fiber paper. Oh, I read Adox is offering premium fiber paper.

After thought, forget about offering 8x10s, offer only 11x14s and 16x20. We could cut the paper to 8x10s if we want an 8x10.

the only 'classic' I would like to see again is Kodak's "Illustrator's AZO', full set of grades, multiple finishes including their ultra-gloss and double weight. All of the others can be replaced with current offerings. Did I just read somewhere that AGFA has a new B&W paper with a Dmax past 2.30 ?

pentaxuser said:

Our wish list for Ilford is clearly very large. Maybe we better tell Simon what we'd be willing to pay for such products. We might not like what he'd tell us in return about what he'd need to charge us.

Hard as it is to swallow its a case of "no pay, no get". A pity.

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Ilford does have a product request form on their website. A while back I inquired about producing a paper with an extremely heavy paper base, and an emulsion which responds well to toning and hand colouring. An Ilford rep contacts me periodically to let me know that they haven't forgotten about my request. My hope is that when they do give me the final numbers I will post it on APUG and come up with enough orders to make it work. It never hurts to ask, right?

- Justin

Yes, we all moan and mourn when our favourite paper is no longer available. But life goes on...

I used to print on Agfa MCC FB and loved the deeeep, deeeep blacks... When it was discontinued, and I needed to switch to Ilford papers (which is about the only paper left readily available here in the shops in the Netherlands), I was at first disappointed a lot... no more deep blacks!

Until I switched to Ilford Multigrade FB Warmtone paper....

Yes, it's still different, and the paper is more slowly, but the prints are fine, I am very happy with it.

I don't know if it's true, but I heard that the Ilford Warmtone paper contains more silver than the regular Ilford FB paper, hence explaining the difference in max black (and price I guesse! , that's the only thing that still really bothers me besides the availability at shops... but I certainly won't go back to regular Ilford FB paper as long as I have a choice)