Legendary Qualities of Discontinued Papers

PHOTOTONE · Apr 14, 2007

Seems like a lot of us assign legendary qualities to b/w papers and films that have been discontinued. I fondly remember Ansco Cykora paper for instance...can't get anything like it now. But, in reality, a lot of what has been discontinued in the last few years I never used much. For instance, the Kodak b/w papers...outside of Elite, I never really liked Kodaks late-model fibre papers. I used Agfa and Ilford for production RC VC paper. In some cases, such as Plus-X in sheet film sizes...I just never used it until recently (out of date boxes I had) and found that I really liked it...too late.

Except in the case of whole companys that have gone belly-up...the products discontinued by existing manufacturers represent products that had very low sales for a period of time. That would mean that the majority of us just didn't use them for one reason or another. If they were truly "better" wouldn't we have been using them?

Just food for a long discussion.

Bob Carnie · Apr 14, 2007

My first job out of college was with a Studio , and the owner would talk for hours about how pissed off he was that Ansco Cycora was no longer available .
I saw his prints and they were indeed beautiful.
I started printing on Ilford Ilfomar when there were many grades and surfaces 1/2 grades as well. I loved this paper and indeed would not stop using it. As well kodak elite is a paper I started using just a few years ago*yes I know after production* for lith printing and I wish I could get a stock of it.
I think what we miss is the varietys and subtle differences between surfaces and paper bases and thickness.
I am really happy with Ilford products today, I just wish they would extend the surface and paper tone selections more so we can think of just a hint of Magic happening if we switch to a different paper.
Ectalure came in so many varieties that it was like going to the candy store to select the next days printing materials. I really do miss this aspect of printing.

Robert T. McCarthy · Apr 14, 2007

When Forte' came out with PolyWarmtone Art a couple of years before it went under, I was thrilled to discover that when enlarging without filtration that it was very close to the speed of Kodaks Ektalure and had a great Ivory base. Since then I use my stock of Forte' for proofing, as I only have about 920 sheets of Ektalure left on Ice. As the manufactures of paper dwindle, we should all support those who are making the commitment to our craft and hobby. For example, I always liked Forte's Polywarmtone + with its off white base. Lets tell Ilford and others of the old papers we liked so much and maybe they will try to resurrect a couple of our favorites or better yet, maybe the'll come up with something new and great.

Regards.

Bob McCarthy

jim appleyard · Apr 14, 2007

Sadly, I didn't get to try much of Luminos/Kentmere's Charcoal R and RCR Art papers. I thought those were quite unique.

paul ron · Apr 14, 2007

I have always printed on Agfa papers, Record Rapid, Portriga, Brovira back in the 60s n 70s. Now I pull out my old prints and see them side by side with the same images reprinted on newer paper like Illford and I puke. The difference is not as suttle as you may think. There is no depth, no warmth or presence. I have been trying many different papers but can't seem to find any that will give me any satisfaction.

Roger Hicks · Apr 14, 2007

1 You can learn to get great results from almost anything

2 In your youth you got the occasional lucky hit

2 minus 1 = THEY DON'T MAKE GREAT PAPER ANY MORE

1 minus 2 = GET OVER IT

Not invariable formulae but probably at least half of all whinges.

Cheers,

R.

Charles Webb · Apr 14, 2007

Hmmmmm,
I did not see DuPont Velour Black mentioned. It was was in tremendous demand through out the world when it disappeared, never to be seen again. Nothing at that time was even close to it. None of the revered manufacturers in our world could come close to being able to duplicate it.

I am still in possession of nearly 500 sheets of DuPont's VB in 8x10 100 sheets boxes G2 and 3, a few Red boxes and the later green ones in my freezer, (Not for sale at any price) don't have a clue whether it is still good or not since I don't have the fortitude to try it. Some one said that a replacement for most any paper ever created could be found, Perhaps so.

Charlie...........................................

fparnold · Apr 14, 2007

I miss Ektalure in the G finish. Beautiful paper, with a good color both in the base and the final image. I stumbled across a portrait of a classmate saved from the 80s recently, and besides that he still looks confused, the tonality, color, etc, all work together beautifully. HP5 in DK-50 1:1, FWIW. Unfortunately, not everything looks good on that paper, and with an attitude about neutral grey with ultra-smooth surfaces showing every microdetail and graint being more "true", its appeal declined as the appeal of B&W commercial portraits declined. Now, it would probably be a strong seller, but the 15-20 years when color became de-riguer in portraits would have been hard to sustain.

Kodabromide in single-weight. Not sure I'd go out of my way to use it, but it's associated with good memories working at the newspaper. Print, process, ferrotype to dry, send downstairs. If annoyed at the request from the editorial desk, send downstairs wet and *splat* straight to the editor's wall with that days's inane grip and grin.

On the other hand, Unicolor RC is also gone, so not all losses are bad losses.

rusty71 · Apr 14, 2007

I'm with Roger on this one. There are some old papers I miss (Portriga Rapid BEFORE they removed the cadmium).
But today's papers are just as good, and I'd miss them just as much. I plan on using some of the Foma warmtone papers, and I hear the Emaks/Efke papers are very lovely.
What I'd love to see from Ilford is their warmtone emulsion on a museum weight, natural baryta base. Something a bit more linen than the current MG warmtone base. Now that would be truly lovely!
I suppose I'd rather fantasize about the new papers we might see than lament the ones that are gone.

Vaughn · Apr 15, 2007

I'm with Rusty on the Agfa Portriga Rapid. Beautiful paper before the last change...I started to use it right after its first major change. The glossy 111 was a beautiful surface, and the paper reacted very nicely with Kodak's Rapid Selenium Toner...going from the olive-ish black to a beautiful redish brown before decending to purple. It would be hard to match Portriga with any "modern" papers, but I suppose the point is not to match what one was doing, but instead move forward.

It has been 15 years since I have done any serious silver printing, but am looking forward to doing some in the near future. First, I'll see how my 16x20papers (Ilford Gallerie and Agfa PR) I still have from 15+ years ago still print. I am operating under the fine illusion that it will all print nicely -- even the 40 or so 16x20 sheets of the older Portriga Rapid 111 that I have tucked away.

I would feel guilty about not using the silver gelatin papers I have stored away, if not for the fun I have had making my own carbon tissues and pt/pd prints these past 15 years (how time flies!) When one makes his own carbon prints and coats one's own pt/pd paper, it is great not to have to depend on manufacturers to produce a consistant product over a long period of time.

But it is good to know that Ilford is still there with Gallerie if I need it.

Vaughn

Robert T. McCarthy · Apr 16, 2007

Charles Webb said:
Hmmmmm,

I am still in possession of nearly 500 sheets of DuPont's VB in 8x10 100 sheets boxes G2 and 3, a few Red boxes and the later green ones in my freezer, (Not for sale at any price) don't have a clue whether it is still good or not since I don't have the fortitude to try it. Some one said that a replacement for most any paper ever created could be found, Perhaps so.

Charlie...........................................

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Hi:

Would like to trade 100 sheet sealed box of Dupont VB for a Sealed 100 sheet box of Kodaks Ektalure (frozen since it was purchased), as long as we guarantee that our papers are in good shape we should be OK.

Regards.

Bob

Matt5791 · Apr 16, 2007

I have a box of 11x14 Ektalure which I acquired in a job lot off ebay. Really looking forward to trying it, but just dont want to wast any on the wrong negative!

dynachrome · Apr 16, 2007

My favorite missing b&w papers? DuPont Velour Black for general use, Agfa Brovira #6 for those hard to print thin negatives and Kodabrome II in all grades. Polymax II RC was also very nice and I could make most prints on it with white light.

Daniel_OB · Apr 17, 2007

I not sure Ilford - Warm Tone Fiber Base Variable Contrast is discontinued, but I think it is gone. I have 8x10 around 300 sheets, and 11x14 around 150 sheets (good stock). Ilford Galerie is still around. It is I mostly used all my life for my personal (silver gel.) photography. If they both are gone I will find, as Roger said, some other Ilford paper that will yield no inferior quality of my prints. Just need to know how to drain the last drop of possibilities out of them.
For my customers I used and some other papers too and it happened no one time that I did not see hidden smile on they face when I hand them the print.

www.Leica-R.com

Peter Schrager · Apr 17, 2007

wrong

daniel I'm not sure what rock you live under but ilford aint gone!!
peter

Ian Grant · Apr 17, 2007

They had some in Henry's in Toronto when I was last there.

As Peter says Ilford's very active, here's a current link Warmtone Fibre Base

Ian

Daniel_OB · Apr 17, 2007

Peter

Daniel_OB · Apr 17, 2007

Peter
I know Ilford is fine, but I said one specific paper, they make, is gone (it is Warm Tone-Variable Contrast-Fiber Base paper). And I am not very sure it is really out of production.
Regards, Daniel

Ian, yes it is it. They in Henry's told me (around two and half months ago) we have only two boxes 8x10 of MGFB papers get it for it is no more in production. Well I took that two boxes. I am very glad that nice paper is still around. You been in store here in Toronto or on internet? Thanks Ian again.

www.Leica-R.com

skygzr · Apr 17, 2007

While attending one of his workshops, I asked Howard Bond about classic versus modern papers. His opinion was that the best papers today were at least as good as the best classic papers he ever used. Someone specifically mentioned Velour Black, and he brought out two prints from the same negative, a vintage print on Velour Black, and a modern one on Ilford Multigrade. They were obviously different but almost everyone agreed that the Multigrade print was better. He admitted that this wasn't a great test since he was no doubt a better printer now. Classic papers are not a magic bullet, at least in his opinion.

chrisf · Apr 17, 2007

I was in LaGrange Camera in LaGrange Illinois recently and he has papers in there that aren't made anymore but since I don't know anything about them I didn't buy any. I saw some Agfa and Kodak polycontrast, to the best of my recollection.

chris

nworth · Apr 17, 2007

I like to fondly remember the old papers like Velour Black and Opal and think they were so great. But, I'm wrong. It is very instructive to look carefully at the actual print characteristics - image color, base, texture, todal.gradation, etc. - of old prints, ignoring the images, and comparing them to modern materials. In general, the new stuff is better. But there was some excellent stuff in the past, and there is some less than great stuff today.

rusty71 · Apr 17, 2007

We've never had it so good

Today I got the newest Freestyle catalog and there are over 15 pages of black and white papers. Sure, we've lost quite a few from Forte and AGFA, and Kodak. But browsing this catalog made me realize that I have not tried Kentona from Kentmere, or the FOMA warm tone yet. Also, they are now importing the Slavich papers from Russia. Ilford is of course well represented there too.

So I plan on supporting these guys by purchasing current production papers. Most likely Kentmere and Slavich to start, and Emaks as well. It's better to buy what's being made than chase the Holy Grail of old papers. Foma has some cool warmtone papers on a Chamois base that look stunning.

Photo Engineer · Apr 17, 2007

At one time, Azo paper was sold in 19 surfaces of paper finish. That does not include contrast grades.

George Eastman House has informaiton on all of them.

I have a booklet with sample prints from lots of old time Kodak papers.

PE

kb244 · May 15, 2007

Hrm interesting thread considering I just got done printing two images onto 5x7 (cut from 8x10) of some Ansco Cykora Y-2 Silk Double Weight. They're currently drying, but I can definitely relate to the 'texture' and 'look' you are refering to. This is the test strip (the second strip actually) that I used to determine exposure, tried to capture the 'texture' via the light.

http://www.karlblessing.com/shares/prints/cykora.jpg

I think I'll have fun with it since I got like 50 sheets left, basically if I try to develop any longer than 1 minute in dektol 1+3 the white base will start to darken rapidly so kept the development of the two prints that are drying right at about 1 minute, they look real nice indeed. I also have a few sheets of Defender Velour Black #4 that I haven't tested yet, the cykora expired in '57, the velour in '56, so not sure if the velour is any good but I know the cykora is definitely usable.

Shawn Dougherty · May 15, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
At one time, Azo paper was sold in 19 surfaces of paper finish. That does not include contrast grades.
PE

I think I'm going to be sick... Thanks PE.

Legendary Qualities of Discontinued Papers

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