Leave fiber prints in water (long time)

henk@apug · Sep 21, 2015

Recently I had to interrupt a print session.

I had developed 6 prints that needed to be selenium toned, washaid treated and then washed in print washer.
They had not been dried yet, and were resting in a water tray.
But I had to interrupt and I decided to leave the prints in the water tray (no running water).

20 hours later I selenium toned them, washaid treated and then washed them.
After a day of drying I flattened them in a dry mounting press.

To my surprise, I had no problem at all ! I had thought that the emulsion could be damaged or so, but everything worked completely normal

The paper in question is Ilford Multigrade Classic Fiber Glossy.

Is this "normal" behaviour for a fiber print or is the Ilford paper just strong.

Anyone else leave their paper a day in the water ?

This can be convenient.

darkosaric · Sep 21, 2015

Once or twice I left also prints for 10-12 hours in water (Fotokemika Emaks FB papers): no problem at all.

Doremus Scudder · Sep 21, 2015

Ilford's emulsions are hardened and often stand up to "mistreatment" well. That said, I wouldn't make leaving prints in water for 20+ hours a habit.

I've got frilling and flaking off of emulsion at the edges of prints (other papers than Ilford) with even 3-4 hours of wet time. Not a real problem if you leave generous borders that you end up trimming off anyway, but still...

Best,

Doremus

removed account4 · Sep 21, 2015

some people soak their prints for 12hours with intermittent water changes
rather than running water wash to remove the residual chemicals .
i've left mine in a tray of water for more than a day ( by mistake )
and they turned out fine ..
i've also had similar edge flaking with long print sessions like doremus speaks of ...
i wouldn't leave rc prints (op i know you are talking about fiber prints )
they sometimes peel when in water too long ..

RalphLambrecht · Sep 21, 2015

henk@apug said:
Recently I had to interrupt a print session.

I had developed 6 prints that needed to be selenium toned, washaid treated and then washed in print washer.
They had not been dried yet, and were resting in a water tray.
But I had to interrupt and I decided to leave the prints in the water tray (no running water).

20 hours later I selenium toned them, washaid treated and then washed them.
After a day of drying I flattened them in a dry mounting press.

To my surprise, I had no problem at all ! I had thought that the emulsion could be damaged or so, but everything worked completely normal

The paper in question is Ilford Multigrade Classic Fiber Glossy.

Is this "normal" behaviour for a fiber print or is the Ilford paper just strong.

Anyone else leave their paper a day in the water ?

This can be convenient.

normal for a great high-quality paper

StephenT · Sep 21, 2015

The OP seems to be toning, then using a wash-aid. My workflow is to wash FB prints for about 5 minutes, then wash-aid for about 10 minutes, then wash for about 10 minutes, then selenium tone, then wash about 20 minutes.

Should I reevaluate my workflow? Shouldn't the washing should be pretty much complete prior to selenium toning? I've read conflicting opinions about mixing the selenium INTO the wash-aid versus using it by itself.

BobMarvin · Sep 21, 2015

I frequently print until late at night and leave my prints in a water bath overnight so that I can use a wash aid and tone them the next day. That's one of several reasons why I only use FB paper. I don't think I've ever left them as long as 20 hours, but wouldn't hesitate to do so if necessary.

Bob Carnie · Sep 21, 2015

+1

Doremus Scudder said:
Ilford's emulsions are hardened and often stand up to "mistreatment" well. That said, I wouldn't make leaving prints in water for 20+ hours a habit.

I've got frilling and flaking off of emulsion at the edges of prints (other papers than Ilford) with even 3-4 hours of wet time. Not a real problem if you leave generous borders that you end up trimming off anyway, but still...

Best,

Doremus

Ian Grant · Sep 21, 2015

20 hours is far to long in the wash, you'' reduce the level of optical brighteners considerably and also damage the baryta layer, this can cause patchiness.

You also run a very high risk of fungal or bacterial attack, maybe not immediately but not far in the future. A lot will depend on the quality of your watr supply.

Ian

Doremus Scudder · Sep 21, 2015

StephenT said:
The OP seems to be toning, then using a wash-aid. My workflow is to wash FB prints for about 5 minutes, then wash-aid for about 10 minutes, then wash for about 10 minutes, then selenium tone, then wash about 20 minutes.

Should I reevaluate my workflow? Shouldn't the washing should be pretty much complete prior to selenium toning? I've read conflicting opinions about mixing the selenium INTO the wash-aid versus using it by itself.

At the risk of hijacking the thread, I'll respond

First, the wash-aid should be just before the wash. Toner has fixer and other agents in it that benefit from the wash-aid.

Mixing selenium toner with wash-aid is uneconomical and not the greatest for the environment. What happens is that the wash-aid exhaust way more quickly than the toner, so you have to toss active toner with a lot of (heavy metal = toxic) selenium in it. Best to use the toner and wash-aid separately. The problem here is that Kodak used to recommend mixing toner with HCA. Great marketing, but not very good for the consumer or the environment.

FWIW, I go straight from fix 2 to the selenium toner. No problems if the fixer is not too acidic. Any alkaline fix or neutral fix will work fine with this work flow, eliminating the need for an intermediate wash. I use Ilford Rapid Fix or Hypam (w/o hardener) at the 1+9 dilution.

Those who read my posts know that I get on my soapbox about replenishing and re-using selenium toner a lot I have batches that have been going for 10+ years without ever having had to discard toner. Search on my name and selenium toner if you're interested.

Best,

Doremus

Doremus Scudder · Sep 21, 2015

Ian Grant said:
20 hours is far to long in the wash, you'' reduce the level of optical brighteners considerably and also damage the baryta layer, this can cause patchiness.

You also run a very high risk of fungal or bacterial attack, maybe not immediately but not far in the future. A lot will depend on the quality of your watr supply.

Ian

+1

Ian's said it better than I!

Doremus

Hilo · Sep 21, 2015

I often leave them in the water overnight. But before doing so I change them in two trays at least 7 to 10 times during 30 - 40 minutes of constant washing at 20 degrees. I don't leave prints in the water overnight when the water's temperature is higher than 17 degrees.

Since end 70ties, never had a problem. I love the fungal or bacterial attack though !! Next time, can you take a picture of that?

henk@apug · Sep 21, 2015

I indeed proceed as Doremus : from fixer (Ilford Rapid Fix 1+9), I go straight to Selenium toner. Atfer toner to washaid, then wash.

As to washing, with the new Classic emulsion, I wash the prints for 10minutes in a print washer.

But I am going to try the following for washing : Leave the prints in a tray (no running water) for 5 to 10 minutes, and change 4 times. Apperently as efficient, but with less water consumption.
What are your thoughts on this ?

Mainecoonmaniac · Sep 21, 2015

This interest me living in drought strickened California. I have a deep 16x20 tray that I use for a holding bath. Instead of using a Kodak tray siphon with slow running water, I wonder I can use a circulating pump to keep prints moving to help remove fixer? So when I'm ready to load my slotted print washer, my prints are cleaner to start?

Ian Grant · Sep 21, 2015

Hilo said:
I often leave them in the water overnight. But before doing so I change them in two trays at least 7 to 10 times during 30 - 40 minutes of constant washing at 20 degrees. I don't leave prints in the water overnight when the water's temperature is higher than 17 degrees.

Since end 70ties, never had a problem. I love the fungal or bacterial attack though !! Next time, can you take a picture of that?

The bit I italicised and put in bold says it all

After an evenings printing session I wash my prints for an hour after they've been in Wash aid then put them to dry, they'll have been in holding wash trays for longer before the wash aid.

I'll sometimes leave the test strips, scrap work prints overnight, that's not an issue but by the next evening the effects of bacteria/fungus can sometimes be seen, softened emulsion starting to degenerate, leave anther few hours and the gelatin is breaking down.

We have to assume the worst, temperature, and the bacterial or fungal load in the water and in the environment and things like the pH of the water supply, location of the darkroom all play a role.

My previous darkroom was in my cellar Basement but below ground level unlike most US/German etc basements), without ventilation damp and plenty of mold spores, so I was quite careful even though most of the year water temperatures were below 10°C.

The issue with over washing is you've stripped the fungi/bacteriacides from the emulsion, but you'll have damage the baryta layer before this.

Ian

Andre Noble · Sep 21, 2015

Ilford fiber papers are the gold standard in terms of physical toughness, I have discovered first hand. But you wont always get away with a 20 hour soak.

Bob Carnie · Sep 21, 2015

I switched my methods due to a post by Doremus years and years ago, I do it his way now, except I go to a preliminary wash after fix.. when finished printing for the day I then use his methods.

I do not mix selenium and hypo clear as well, and I do replenish the selenium , I get freaked out when the sludge becomes overwhelming.

QUOTE=Doremus Scudder;1953791293]At the risk of hijacking the thread, I'll respond

First, the wash-aid should be just before the wash. Toner has fixer and other agents in it that benefit from the wash-aid.

Mixing selenium toner with wash-aid is uneconomical and not the greatest for the environment. What happens is that the wash-aid exhaust way more quickly than the toner, so you have to toss active toner with a lot of (heavy metal = toxic) selenium in it. Best to use the toner and wash-aid separately. The problem here is that Kodak used to recommend mixing toner with HCA. Great marketing, but not very good for the consumer or the environment.

FWIW, I go straight from fix 2 to the selenium toner. No problems if the fixer is not too acidic. Any alkaline fix or neutral fix will work fine with this work flow, eliminating the need for an intermediate wash. I use Ilford Rapid Fix or Hypam (w/o hardener) at the 1+9 dilution.

Those who read my posts know that I get on my soapbox about replenishing and re-using selenium toner a lot I have batches that have been going for 10+ years without ever having had to discard toner. Search on my name and selenium toner if you're interested.

Best,

Doremus[/QUOTE]

Bob Carnie · Sep 21, 2015

My previous darkroom was in my cellar Basement but below ground level unlike most US/German etc basements), without ventilation damp and plenty of mold spores, so I was quite careful even though most of the year water temperatures were below 10°C.

I have never accused you of being a Troll but this may change my mind about you Ian.

Ron789 · Sep 21, 2015

I always left my prints in still water overnight, to rinse and dry them the next day. Works perfectly well!

ToddB · Sep 21, 2015

I do a 14 min wash after developing and another 15 min wash after Sel toning. 20 hours? Wow.. what a water bill.

Todd

MartinP · Sep 21, 2015

The 20 hours was in a static tank/tray, not in a running washer . . .

"... I decided to leave the prints in the water tray (no running water)..."

Ian Grant · Sep 22, 2015

Hilo said:
I love the fungal or bacterial attack though !! Next time, can you take a picture of that?

Just for you

Here's two images showing the effects of fungal or bacterial attack.

You can see clearly where the gelatin has broken down and washed away.

Gelatin is used in labs to culture micro0rganisms, fungal and bacterial, so a print left too long in water, particularly static water, is at high risk of attack. The same happens if a dry print gets, and remains, damp.

I'll clarify as Bob seemed to mis-interpret my comments.

The cellars in many older British house built at the end of the 19th and early 20th C were often earth floors, mainly meant for storing wood and coal for heating the house, frequently quite damp. So very different to the utilitarian basements in many North American and German houses which are usually damp-proof and reasonably well ventilated.

I had to be careful to keep my cellars (inc darkroom) warm and ventilated even after damp-proofing the walls and floors, even so it was impossible to remove all traces of damp particularly in the Summer so I'd run a higher than average risk of prints being ruined if I left them in static water for 20 hours or more. In fact I never left prints in the darkroom over-night anyway, on the odd occasion I'd leave them in the bath upstairs and finish washing them first thing in the morning. On the one occasion I forgot and left them until the evening (approx 20 hours) I noticed the Baryta layer was patchy, if you held the prints to the light you could spot it easily.

Fibre based paper's expensive and after all the effort put into making prints it's not worth taking risks over-washing.

Ian

Bob Carnie · Sep 22, 2015

Ian -- Joke -- Trolls live underground--

Ian Grant · Sep 22, 2015

Bob Carnie said:
Ian -- Joke -- Trolls live underground--

Well I did spend a long time in my cellars Darkroom and office (with HiFi & computers.

Ian

imyself · Sep 22, 2015

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/home.asp

Here's what Ilford has to say about washing its FB paper ( click on the link for reducing wash water consumption ) . The wash time is remarkably short, if you follow their recommendations.

Leave fiber prints in water (long time)

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