Least amount of water to wash fiber based prints

Mainecoonmaniac · May 6, 2014

As you probably heard, California is going through a serious drought. Currently, I wash prints with 2 water wasting ways. first one is a Kodak tray siphon and my second method is my old Arkay tumbling print washer. I want to build a DIY, low water consumption print washer. What's the least amount of water a washer could use and still remain effective in washing prints? I print mostly 8x10. Right now, I do use hypo clear with all my fiber prints. Looks like this summer, not many folks here are going to water their lawns which I think it's a waste of water anyway. I don't think washing FB print is a waste of water, but I want to do it more efficiently.

Oren Grad · May 6, 2014

To minimize water use the trick is to do a series of still-water soaks rather than running the faucet continuously. Depending on the kind of tray or tank you are using, and on your chemistry sequence and water characteristics, you will have to experiment to find what mix of sitting in still water, agitation in still water, dumps and refills, and final brief rinse in running water is required to get a clean wash. But it can be done. The tradeoff is that you spend more of your time and labor in order to save the water.

Double Negative · May 6, 2014

A standing soak helps, as does the use of a hypo clear agent. The latter cuts wash times in half. I'm a big fan of Perma Wash (made by Heico).

baachitraka · May 6, 2014

I soak in 1l of solution made up of 10g Sodium Sulfite, sometimes overnight, I have no idea what effect does it have. After I rinse and put it in a tray of water and change once in a hour.

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Mainecoonmaniac · May 6, 2014

Thanks for looking for the article

Michael R 1974 said:
It is a diffusion process. You have to do some testing, but I recall reading some reports in Photo Techniques years ago which showed "archival" levels could be achieved with surprisingly small quantities of water. I'll try to find the articles.

My method is to do a short fix with rapid fixer, then put the prints in a holding tray of water. After that, I use a second round fresh fix for a minute than a 5 minute wash. Then I soak the prints in hypo clear for 10 minutes than wash for another 5 minutes. Both print washers use tons of water though.

Rick A · May 6, 2014

I just received notice that our water company is raising rates to home owners 112.4% as of June 1 this year. Commercial rates go up 46% and industrial rates by a mere 38%. Guess my already sparse conservative methods get even more stringent, and I may be forced to use RC paper exclusively.

Bob Carnie · May 6, 2014

It must be pointed out that a bunch of prints sitting on top of each other will need some type of shuffling for the fixer to go somewhere, I have heard the sit and dump method works very well and if I lived in California I would be thinking about this method of washing.

I use a non hardening rapid two fixer bath, prints sit in a low volume water replacement tray with holes drilled into the bottom, I then hypo clear for five minutes making sure I shuffle the prints from bottom to top, then into the vertical washers for 20 minutes.

Mainecoonmaniac · May 6, 2014

I do like tray siphons too, but it doesn't work if the flow of water is slow. The siphon needs a wasteful amount of water before it works properly. It is more efficient with more prints. You do have to keep the prints moving. Thanks again for posting the article.

baachitraka · May 6, 2014

I like to read that article if publicly available.

cliveh · May 6, 2014

Mainecoonmaniac said:
As you probably heard, California is going through a serious drought. Currently, I wash prints with 2 water wasting ways. first one is a Kodak tray siphon and my second method is my old Arkay tumbling print washer. I want to build a DIY, low water consumption print washer. What's the least amount of water a washer could use and still remain effective in washing prints? I print mostly 8x10. Right now, I do use hypo clear with all my fiber prints. Looks like this summer, not many folks here are going to water their lawns which I think it's a waste of water anyway. I don't think washing FB print is a waste of water, but I want to do it more efficiently.

That depends on how many 10" X 8" prints you are washing?

grahamp · May 6, 2014

Use tray rinses in a little fresh water to dilute any carry over fixer right down - you only want to wash out the emulsion and base. After that it is wash aid and soaking with periodic flushing of the washer. My wash tank drain goes to the ornamental side of the garden where it will do some good - the fixer residue is minimal. The tray rinses are treated as fixer for disposal.

By removing as much excess fixer as I can, I can wait until I have a full tank for washing. I am thinking of making a smaller set of dividers for my Versalab so I can put in a displacement box to reduce the volume for small batches.

Mainecoonmaniac · May 6, 2014

My usual 12 per batch

cliveh said:
That depends on how many 10" X 8" prints you are washing?

I usually make about a dozen or so.

cliveh · May 6, 2014

Efficient washing depends on complete changes of water and water temperature and I would guess that for fibre based prints, something like 30 minutes in a Nova slot wash tank with water about 12C would do the trick.

Maris · May 6, 2014

Thrift has its place. I routinely wash about 40 fibre based 8x10s in two batches in a Paterson Major archival washer that features continuous flow and rocking agitation. Total water usage is about 150 litres which costs me about 40 cents. That's a bargain compared to the price of even one sheet of photographic paper not to mention test strips, failed proofs, etc.

Simonh82 · May 7, 2014

You should read mysteries of the vortex http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=296print (part 1) and http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...N&usg=AFQjCNGFfGycUjgzFySAq2vkixR9J8jKXQhoped (part 2). It was written by the owner of Silverprint and is a thorough investigation of FB print washing.

Basic conclusion is you need surprisingly little water but you do need movement of water over the paper surface to aid defusion of fixer out of the paper.

HCA and short fix times are your friend.

I use fewer changes of water but regular manual agitation to wash my prints.

bvy · May 7, 2014

Simonh82 said:
Basic conclusion is you need surprisingly little water but you do need movement of water over the paper surface to aid defusion of fixer out of the paper.

Drum and motor base?

Doremus Scudder · May 7, 2014

I recommend The Mysteries of the Vortex as well.

If water is really at such a premium, it would be well worth doing a test. I'd think a slot washer, e.g., a standing, "archival" type would be the best for batches of 12 prints. Trays are just too much of a hassle with larger batches. One with a small volume would be best for water saving.

Then, fill your washer, shut off the water flow but keep the washer full, and insert the prints to be tested (you could use regular prints with adequate borders for testing, or use fixed and HCAd white paper). Agitate by hand every, say, five minutes by lifting and dropping them. After 10 minutes, pull a print and test for adequate washing using a residual hypo test (e.g., Kodak HT-2). Change the water in the washer by draining and refilling. Pull a print and test again after another 10 minutes. Dump and refill again. Keep going in 10 minute intervals till you have a well-washed print then add a safety margin. I imagine you will come out at about two changes of water and at 25-30 minutes total wash time.

Best,

Doremus

tkamiya · May 7, 2014

I use a slot washer. At first, I have water moving quite fast, maximum speed without overflowing which isn't actually much. Then I slow the water movement to bare minimum. Then wash for 30 minutes. Rationale is, I want to get rid of what's on surface quickly. Rest is diffusion anyway so it's going to be slow. I just want water moving.

So far, no issues. I have no idea what the total water usage is, but it can't all that much looking at how much it flowed out.

This reply doesn't establish anything in terms of minimum but this is what I do.

Bob Carnie · May 7, 2014

I agree with this as being a very good method if you are in an area with water shortages.

QUOTE=Doremus Scudder;1645426]I recommend The Mysteries of the Vortex as well.

If water is really at such a premium, it would be well worth doing a test. I'd think a slot washer, e.g., a standing, "archival" type would be the best for batches of 12 prints. Trays are just too much of a hassle with larger batches. One with a small volume would be best for water saving.

Then, fill your washer, shut off the water flow but keep the washer full, and insert the prints to be tested (you could use regular prints with adequate borders for testing, or use fixed and HCAd white paper). Agitate by hand every, say, five minutes by lifting and dropping them. After 10 minutes, pull a print and test for adequate washing using a residual hypo test (e.g., Kodak HT-2). Change the water in the washer by draining and refilling. Pull a print and test again after another 10 minutes. Dump and refill again. Keep going in 10 minute intervals till you have a well-washed print then add a safety margin. I imagine you will come out at about two changes of water and at 25-30 minutes total wash time.

Best,

Doremus[/QUOTE]

Jim Jones · May 7, 2014

Long ago I sometimes had to make many 8x10 prints on RC paper. With a washing aid and perhaps longer washes, the same technique would work with fiber paper. The prints were washed about 30 at a time in deep plastic dish trays with constant shuffling. After a few minutes they were transferred to a second tray and the process repeated, then to a final tray, again with constant shuffling. The first tray was then dumped and filled from the second tray. The second tray was filled from the third tray, which was filled with fresh water. The process was labor intensive, but otherwise efficient. It used only a few ounces of water per print. Those prints from 40 years ago have survived in good condition.

baachitraka · May 8, 2014

Uqee

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bvy · May 8, 2014

baachitraka said:
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That's the only part I understood.

baachitraka · May 8, 2014

Sorry I did not write 'Uqee'. May be my little daughter playing with the Nexus tab. Sorry again for the noise.

Mainecoonmaniac · May 8, 2014

They thanks!

Simonh82 said:
You should read mysteries of the vortex http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=296print (part 1) and http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...N&usg=AFQjCNGFfGycUjgzFySAq2vkixR9J8jKXQhoped (part 2). It was written by the owner of Silverprint and is a thorough investigation of FB print washing.

Basic conclusion is you need surprisingly little water but you do need movement of water over the paper surface to aid defusion of fixer out of the paper.

HCA and short fix times are your friend.

I use fewer changes of water but regular manual agitation to wash my prints.

Thanks for the link! Great article. Looks like short fix times can go a long way in saving water. I'm going to copy the article for my reference.

Times have change. When I was a kid in the town of Sacramento, people wasted water. The town has access to to rivers. The Sacramento River and the American River. People used to use their hoses to spray leaves off their lawns and washed their sidewalks.

Least amount of water to wash fiber based prints

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