Learning composition

guangong · Sep 26, 2018

jtk said:
Print big, show to others and insist on responses having given them no hints.

Composition is not a way to make worthwhile photos. It's incidental and often a distraction.

Size of print does not make a photograph better or worse. Very interesting is how small many very famous iconic photographs are. Viewing distance more important. Often times small has a better feel.

To say that composition is incidental is not to understand the importance of the frame, whether painting, drawing or photograph. The various ways that photographs are taken determines to some extent determines how much attention can be given to composition before the act of tripping the shutter. Large format view camera a great deal and smaller formats less. Grab shots much less, but composition still there. Unless rigidly shooting full frame, cropping can change composition. Faulty composition is most likely the reason most photographs are rejected as unsuccessful. A technically perfect photograph will still fail if elements within photograph lack good composition.

jtk · Sep 26, 2018

guangong said:
Size of print does not make a photograph better or worse. Very interesting is how small many very famous iconic photographs are. Viewing distance more important. Often times small has a better feel.

To say that composition is incidental is not to understand the importance of the frame, whether painting, drawing or photograph. The various ways that photographs are taken determines to some extent determines how much attention can be given to composition before the act of tripping the shutter. Large format view camera a great deal and smaller formats less. Grab shots much less, but composition still there. Unless rigidly shooting full frame, cropping can change composition. Faulty composition is most likely the reason most photographs are rejected as unsuccessful. A technically perfect photograph will still fail if elements within photograph lack good composition.

Lots of opinion, zero aspiration for significance. Composition is well and good but is worthless if the image is inconsequential.

Big prints subject photos to tougher evaluation, especially by others, which explains fear of most photographers to make and show them.

btaylor · Sep 26, 2018

I don’t know why jtk is on such a rant, especially since he posted that useful link to portrait composition, but the OP had a simple question about composition and travel photography.
I’ll throw this in the ring— the old Kodak “How to Take Good Pictures” books are still great guides to better looking photos. Simple and effective.

removed account4 · Sep 26, 2018

it does not corelate that the size of a photograph has anything to do with its significance
it has to do with the maker's ego and how he or she wishes their work was important

Mainecoonmaniac · Sep 26, 2018

mayurgomes said:
I have a lot of interest in photography and even click some pics whenever I travel. But when I review the pics later, I will not be very happy the way my photos look. So I would like to know some good sources where I can learn composition.

Check out Tavis Leaf Glover.

guangong · Sep 26, 2018

jtk said:
Lots of opinion, zero aspiration for significance. Composition is well and good but is worthless if the image is inconsequential.

Big prints subject photos to tougher evaluation, especially by others, which explains fear of most photographers to make and show them.

Poor Rembrandt, made all of those small, insignificant, inconsequential etchings and drawings. Sometimes reproductions in books are larger than the original. I am always amazed by how small many paintings by the masters are when met in person. How they accomplish such work is a wonder.
Decades ago I routinely made 16x24 prints but haven’t done that for a long time. Size is a matter of preference. My best friend shoots birds, bugs and small animals and makes giant sized prints that sharply show every detail. He likes to exhibit.

I suppose composition is not significant for certain kinds of photography involving crime scenes, surveillance, etc but other pictures have a structure, good or bad. The OP is really asking how to improve the structure of the elements that make his pictures stronger. The Kodak book mentioned is a good start. Studying composition may have a beginning but has no end. Structure and order are needed for art. What is a piece of music called? A composition.

jtk · Sep 26, 2018

guangong said:
Poor Rembrandt, made all of those small, insignificant, inconsequential etchings and drawings. Sometimes reproductions in books are larger than the original. I am always amazed by how small many paintings by the masters are when met in person. How they accomplish such work is a wonder.
Decades ago I routinely made 16x24 prints but haven’t done that for a long time. Size is a matter of preference. My best friend shoots birds, bugs and small animals and makes giant sized prints that sharply show every detail. He likes to exhibit.

I suppose composition is not significant for certain kinds of photography involving crime scenes, surveillance, etc but other pictures have a structure, good or bad. The OP is really asking how to improve the structure of the elements that make his pictures stronger. The Kodak book mentioned is a good start. Studying composition may have a beginning but has no end. Structure and order are needed for art. What is a piece of music called? A composition.

This is an unnecessary argument. See the "composition" link I provided earlier (in bold type). I don't think photos "fail" because of poor composition as often as they do from lack of attention or intention. I think we can learn more from Picasso than from Rembrandt unless we want to attempt Rembrandt lighting.

jtk · Sep 26, 2018

Poisson Du Jour said:
Mate, that's bullshit.
How about less philosophising and theorising and generally much less faux sage-like responses, and more into active practice? I suggest you pick up a camera some day and learn the fundamentals of photography.

Poisson, chill, speak for yourself.

jtk · Sep 26, 2018

jnanian said:
yes they do,

they are on the minds or plenty of artists of all types from architects and set designers to sculptors, painters and photographers
not really sure where you are getting your information from. maybe composition doesn't matter to you.
sure reasons why are important but they have nothing to do with composition rather personal motives

what artists ( aside from yourself ) have specifically told you, they don't concern themselves with composition ,,
biographies and autobiographies to quote are OK too ..
you live near kirk gittings how about asking him ? LOL
thanks

No need to be so upset. Speak for yourself. I know Kirk Gittings work...excellent stuff... ALL of it significant for a lot more than composition (e.g. thematic)...as is the work of all passionate/serious photographers.

We've all seen lots of interesting work in Media, perhaps a little of mine. Go back and click the "composition" link I provided in bold type.

jtk · Sep 26, 2018

btaylor said:
I don’t know why jtk is on such a rant, especially since he posted that useful link to portrait composition, but the OP had a simple question about composition and travel photography.
I’ll throw this in the ring— the old Kodak “How to Take Good Pictures” books are still great guides to better looking photos. Simple and effective.

btaylor: below is the OT in italics for your convenience.

Fwiw I think most humans "learn composition" by viewing other work and playing with it in their own work than by reading about it, but of course I did provide a highly detailed link above, in bold type.

I think "composition" becomes habit, leading to good and not-so-good results. It's lower priority than reason-for-making-the-photo.

I also think sketching works better than photography for learning, and that people who insist they can't sketch are unlikely to "compose" with a camera. When doing studio photography with graphic designers I/we commonly shared sketches as well as peering at ground glass.

THE OT : "I have a lot of interest in photography and even click some pics whenever I travel. But when I review the pics later, I will not be very happy the way my photos look. So I would like to know some good sources where I can learn composition."

Mainecoonmaniac · Sep 26, 2018

mark said:

Great resource! Thank you. As for composing for photography, the same rules apply to painting and film making. It's problem solving on a 2-dimensional plane. I'm been learning and struggling with composition for close to 40 years and I'm still learning. I will never stop learning. That's why I feel a need to go to museums and galleries.

faberryman · Sep 26, 2018

jtk said:
Big prints subject photos to tougher evaluation, especially by others, which explains fear of most photographers to make and show them.

What do you consider "big prints" that most photographers are afraid to make?

jtk · Sep 26, 2018

faberryman said:
What do you consider "big prints" that most photographers are afraid to make?

No size in particular.

Many of "us"have long considered letter size a goodish way to print routinely but for me that's too small to hang at home. OTOH it's easy to show in a small portfolio. Most prints in my home just about fill 11X17 or 13X19...with inkjet there's no loss with size, but bigger uses exponentially more expensive pigment (a disadvantage vs silver...tho sharper).

The main thing I mean, when I suggest "big prints" is to make it easy for viewers to see all of the details of the image without having to hold the print in their hand or press their nose to it. The secondary thing is to test the quality of one's own work by printing bigger than usual.

removed account4 · Sep 26, 2018

jtk said:
No need to be so upset. Speak for yourself. I know Kirk Gittings work...excellent stuff... ALL of it significant for a lot more than composition (e.g. thematic)...as is the work of all passionate/serious photographers.

We've all seen lots of your work in Media, perhaps a little of mine. Go back and click the "composition" link I provided in bold type.

not upset sorry to disappoint.. LOL
as i said go talk to kirk gittings and tell him
how unimportant composition is LOL
your latest monologing
kind of has that angry louis black feel to it

thanks but ... naah i don't know if i am gonna follow that link
its probably to an infected website with a troll+BOT farm
that's gonna try to harvest my soul and drain my bank account ..
the heck with pablo
probably learn more from
manray or marcel duchamp or meret oppenheim
than any of the guys on the cigar box
LOL chill,
that's funny too ...

jtk · Sep 26, 2018

As to Kirk Gittings....I doubt he authorized Jananian to use him this way, as a tool. I've seen a lot of Gittings' work and admire him tremendously...poor jananian doesn't even respect him.

faberryman · Sep 26, 2018

jtk said:
I don't know what a "louis black" is. Is it yet more racial prejudice, like earlier racist cartoons?

No. He is a comedian whose shtick is to rant. You might want to Google first before saying something outrageous.

jtk · Sep 26, 2018

faberryman said:
No. He is a comedian whose shtick is to rant. You might want to Google first before saying something outrageous.

What makes jananian's comedian worth Googling on Photrio?

jtk · Sep 26, 2018

jnanian said:
it does not corelate that the size of a photograph has anything to do with its significance
it has to do with the maker's ego and how he or she wishes their work was important[/QUOTE

Does that explain why some photographers print small?

removed account4 · Sep 26, 2018

jtk said:
I don't know what a "louis black" is. Is it yet more racial prejudice, like earlier racist cartoons?

As to Kirk Gittings....I doubt he authorized Jananian to use him this way, as a tool. I've seen a lot of Gittings' work and admire him tremendously...poor jananian doesn't even respect him.

how did you infer i did not respect kirk ?
seeing you live in ABQ and to impress you have peppered various threads
by dropping his name ..
i figured you were friends with him ... figured you could ask him
if he also feels composition is unimportant the next time you see him
not sure how that is using him as a "tool"
or how suggesting you rant like louis black ( a comedian ) is racial prejudice ?
i have never uploaded racist cartoons and find that offensive that you would say that.
(oh well, that's a new low for you.)
ive posted "pop culture MEMES" to make light of your steady stream of mean spirited and ourtrageous posts
and others that ( to me at least ) have been incomprehensible.

faberryman · Sep 26, 2018

jtk said:
What makes jananian's comedian worth Googling on Photrio?

So you don't make a fool of yourself with baseless accusations?

jtk said:
Remember the racist animations from the same Subscriber?

No. Perhaps you could provide a link to the post in question.

btaylor · Sep 26, 2018

jtk said:
I don't know what a "louis black" is. Is it yet more racial prejudice, like earlier racist cartoons?
.

Ha! Louis Black-- that's his name. He's a comic, he happens to be white. And he's angry!
I don't know where you see the disconnect between "I have a lot of interest in photography and even click some pics whenever I travel. But when I review the pics later, I will not be very happy the way my photos look. So I would like to know some good sources where I can learn composition." and my suggestion that any of the old Kodak books on making good pictures could be helpful, there are plenty of tips on composition in them. Books are good for learning as well as experience, no?
But I don't sketch, so maybe I didn't learn photography too good.
Take it easy my friend.

removed account4 · Sep 26, 2018

faberryman said:
No. Perhaps you could provide a link to the post in question.

it was mr t crying ( from his television show )
and kermit the frog typing fast ( from the muppet show / muppet movie )

has nothing to do with racism...
but making probably the toughest guy on the planet
a professional wrestler, member of the A team, someone who pittys fools,
and winner of the world's best bouncer competition on abc wide world of sports in the early 80s
who had his own breakfast cereal and cartoon on sat mornings, who had a mowhawk and 20# of gold
( that he later sold when he went broke ) cry because his posts are so mean spirited + harsh ...
and kermit, well, he's a hell of a typist types a lot and FAST
and probably none of it makes any sense ... because i have no clue
what he is talking about 90% of the time ...

btaylor said:
Ha! Louis Black-- that's his name. He's a comic, he happens to be white. And he's angry!

yup he kind of cranky and ranty and really funny

jtk · Sep 26, 2018

jnanian said:
how did you infer i did not respect kirk ?
seeing you live in ABQ and to impress you have peppered various threads
by dropping his name (and others) ..
i figured you were friends with him ... and seeing you have
such strong opinions about composition you can ask him
if he also feels composition is unimportant ... and when he teaches in chicago
if he tells his students to "forget about composition just print big"
not sure how that is using him as a "tool"
or how suggesting you rant like louis black ( a comedian )
is racial prejudice ? sorry i have never uploaded racist cartoons
( that's a new low for you to say something like that )
ive posted MEMES which corresponded to your steady stream of outrageous posts

dude, you gotta chill

I never dropped Kirk Gitting's name. I don't know him personally, never suggested that I did. I admire his work and have said that when appropriate....including the last time jnanian brought him up.

Nobody (including me) "feels composition is unimportant" . I never said anything like that...someone simply twisted that in order to create a falsehood (as he did with Kirk Gittings).

Repeat posting of racist animation and claiming its "only" a "meme" isn't a good thing.

I'm not a former mail-order photo student: I'm former student of a man who was a personal Minor White student at Rochester. I think it's useful to mention influences. I don't think White would be as concerned with "composition" as he was with meditative seeing, but that's just my impression.

See "Aperture" magazines to form your own impression.

Mail-order instruction is fine, direct instruction isn't necessarily better.

No reason for any of us to be jealous.

jtk · Sep 26, 2018

btaylor said:
Ha! Louis Black-- that's his name. He's a comic, he happens to be white. And he's angry!
I don't know where you see the disconnect between "I have a lot of interest in photography and even click some pics whenever I travel. But when I review the pics later, I will not be very happy the way my photos look. So I would like to know some good sources where I can learn composition." and my suggestion that any of the old Kodak books on making good pictures could be helpful, there are plenty of tips on composition in them. Books are good for learning as well as experience, no?
But I don't sketch, so maybe I didn't learn photography too good.
Take it easy my friend.

Kodak books are still great for film shooters. I posted a detailed link about composition:

btaylor said:
Ha! Louis Black-- that's his name. He's a comic, he happens to be white. And he's angry!
I don't know where you see the disconnect between "I have a lot of interest in photography and even click some pics whenever I travel. But when I review the pics later, I will not be very happy the way my photos look. So I would like to know some good sources where I can learn composition." and my suggestion that any of the old Kodak books on making good pictures could be helpful, there are plenty of tips on composition in them. Books are good for learning as well as experience, no?
But I don't sketch, so maybe I didn't learn photography too good.
Take it easy my friend.

Li
Thanks for your advice about Kodak's books. Their portrait photo book is especially noteworthy IMO. I think the Life Magazine series is also good. .

I didn't claim ability to sketch is necessary but it sure can con be helpful, especially for still life IMO.

jtk · Sep 26, 2018

faberryman said:
So you don't make a fool of yourself with baseless accusations?

No. Perhaps you could provide a link to the post in question.

No need. He posted it again.

Learning composition

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