Learn me good: LF shutters and what lenses mount to them

Klainmeister · May 23, 2013

Hi all,

Finally stepping back into LF and have a Zone VI camera in the mail to replace my beat up Graflex. I have two lenses at the moment (looking for a 110-135mm lens, not sure which yet) which are a 90mm f/8 Schneider-Kreuznach Technika and a Schneider 210mm f/5.6 Symnnar-s. They've both been excellent, but since I figure I'll need to replace the lens boards to fit the new camera, it raised some questions regarding shutters, boards, and lenses. I searched and found some info, but maybe need some better google'ing skills.

Question: the 90mm has a Synchro Compur shutter that I would love to replace, mainly because we had to glue on a release barrel in order to keep it open during composition. I looked online and see some with Copal 0? How do you determine the right shutter size for the threads/size of the elements? Is that standard?

Question 2: where is the best source of LF lenses and shutters? I've checked KEH and it's alright, but almost nothing with regards to shutters in particular.

Last, anyone got a good recommendation on some lens boards for the Zone Vi. Sounds like the Linhof and Wista boards fit. 4x4cm?

Thanks all!!!!

Richard S. (rich815) · May 23, 2013

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/forum.php

Klainmeister · May 23, 2013

Well, yes, thank you. I've gone over to that forum, but seeing that a lot of users on there are on here, I figured why not just ask here and not make a new account.

Richard S. (rich815) · May 23, 2013

It's worth it.

TheFlyingCamera · May 23, 2013

For the lensboards (yes, it should take the Linhof/Wista boards, IIRC), try Badger Graphic - they usually have name brand and knockoffs in stock. I'd also call them and ask about the shutters. If memory serves I read something recently that Copal had quit making shutters, so they may not be available new for much longer. I'd try them and the View Camera Store in Arizona.

http://www.badgergraphic.com/

Dead Link Removed

Klainmeister · May 23, 2013

Thanks! I hadn't realized that that camera store is in AZ. Might need to make a trip down there.

I found a a few Copal 0's out there, but they run about $400, which is worth more than the lens itself. I hate those situations because the lens is quite excellent. I guess I'll leave that for the Graflex and find something else for the Zone VI.

E. von Hoegh · May 23, 2013

What is the problem with the existing shutter?

Klainmeister · May 23, 2013

Nothing, actually. There's no open shutter function nor is there a spot to thread on a shutter release (for a press camera or something?). Therefore the solution we came up with in HS was to glue onto the lensboard a threaded shutter release adapter that hits the shutter arm. Effectively, we thread a locking cable release into that adapter, cock the shutter, open and lock it. Kinda ghetto, but it has worked for about 8 years or so. Now that the new camera doesn't take the same lensboard, I realized I won't be able to use the same technique, unless of course I want to glue it on that one as well.

E. von Hoegh · May 23, 2013

Klainmeister said:
Nothing, actually. There's no open shutter function nor is there a spot to thread on a shutter release (for a press camera or something?). Therefore the solution we came up with in HS was to glue onto the lensboard a threaded shutter release adapter that hits the shutter arm. Effectively, we thread a locking cable release into that adapter, @#!*% the shutter, open and lock it. Kinda ghetto, but it has worked for about 8 years or so. Now that the new camera doesn't take the same lensboard, I realized I won't be able to use the same technique, unless of course I want to glue it on that one as well.

I have the same shutter, it has a button that you push toward the rear of the shutter to hold it open, to focus. The button is about midway along the slot the cocking lever moves in. I found it more convenient to use "B" and a locking release as mine is on a recessed board.
No cable release socket? It must have been broken off or removed, this can be replaced. The 90mm Super Angulon is not a lens for press cameras!

To replace the shutter, you will have to match the threads and the spacing within a very very small tolerance. New shutter are almost unavailable, so the only source is cannibalising other lenses with all that entails - accurate measuring, CLA for the 'new" 40 year old shutter, aperture scales, etc.

A Copal "O" will have the same dimensions as a Compur "O", and so on.

Jon Shiu · May 23, 2013

Re: Zone VI lens boards, there are different models of camera that have different sized lens boards. If it is the older Wista model, then the Linhof type board will fit. If newer Wisner/Calumet etc. then it would take a wooden board.

Check your shutter to make sure what size it is before buying a replacement. For example, it might be a 00 size shutter instead of 0. The skgrimes website has measurements.

Jon

smieglitz · May 23, 2013

Have a look:

http://www.skgrimes.com/library/used-obsolete-discontinued-shutters/compur

http://www.skgrimes.com/products/new-copal-shutters/standardcopals

Wondering if you might be interested in something in the 150mm/165mm/180mm range? I may have some Fujinon 135mm cells that would fit your current or future shutters. I also have some 127mm/135mm lenses and cells that are f/4.7 Tessar designs. They barely cover 4x5 at infinity so no room for movements unless you focus closer. If interested in any, shoot me a pm and let me know what you might be looking for.

Ian Grant · May 23, 2013

E. von Hoegh said:
What is the problem with the existing shutter?

It looks like it's a very early 90mm f8 SA in a Compur #00 and they are small & fiddly, no spare parts available, B but not T so not the fgasteset to set up and use. They were OK for Press cameras like this, the shutter was really made for MF roll film cameras but Schneider used it for some Super Angulons before switching to the better #0 Compurs.

The options are replace with a #00 Prontor if it fails and can't be repaired or there are adapters for #0 shutters to take #00 fit cells but you'd need to measure the spacings first and correct if necessary. The lens is about 55 years old

Ian

Klainmeister · May 23, 2013

Wow, interesting info then. So if that's the case, I guess I look into getting a modern somewhat wide angle and leave the 90mm for the graflex, which I have a 6x17 back attached to anyhow. Dang, guess I'm shopping for more boards and lenses than I had originally hoped.

I'll take a closer look at the shutter tonight when I get outta my jail--err, office! Here's a pic of the mod.

TheFlyingCamera · May 23, 2013

That's a hell of a kluge. But at least it works. In the long run it will probably be cheaper and easier to find another f8 SA or one of the f6.8 Angulons that's in a better shutter.
Like this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Schneider-A...amera_Lenses&hash=item3a81696508#ht_63wt_1399

I have no affiliation with the seller - just something that turned up on a quick ebay search.

Ian Grant · May 23, 2013

That's definitely a #00 shutter, the 90mm f5.6 SA I have is in a #0 Compur and there's a dust cover/space between the lens barrel and the rimset speed control ring. The 5.6 version has larger elemnts as well.

Ian

Klainmeister · May 23, 2013

TheFlyingCamera said:
That's a hell of a kluge. But at least it works. In the long run it will probably be cheaper and easier to find another f8 SA or one of the f6.8 Angulons that's in a better shutter.
Like this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Schneider-A...amera_Lenses&hash=item3a81696508#ht_63wt_1399

I have no affiliation with the seller - just something that turned up on a quick ebay search.

It was used for backpacking and kept getting broken off, so ya, there ya go. What do you expect from high schoolers with a big camera and no idea how to use it?!

I think I want a 110mm instead of a 90mm. 90mm is too wide for my flavor.

TheFlyingCamera · May 23, 2013

I have a 110 you'd love (but it's not for sale!). Look around for a Goerz American Optical (usually abbreviated to Am.Opt.) Wide-angle Dagor 4 3/8" f8. Light, compact, almost covers whole plate wide open. Mine is in an older Rapax shutter, but they're actually pretty decent if you exercise them regularly. You could probably get one put in a Copal 0 if you must have a modern shutter with it. It is small enough I used to be able to reverse the lensboard and leave it mounted inside my Shen Hao 4x5 when closed up, with no harm to the camera or lens.

Klainmeister · May 23, 2013

smieglitz said:
Have a look:

http://www.skgrimes.com/library/used-obsolete-discontinued-shutters/compur

http://www.skgrimes.com/products/new-copal-shutters/standardcopals

Wondering if you might be interested in something in the 150mm/165mm/180mm range? I may have some Fujinon 135mm cells that would fit your current or future shutters. I also have some 127mm/135mm lenses and cells that are f/4.7 Tessar designs. They barely cover 4x5 at infinity so no room for movements unless you focus closer. If interested in any, shoot me a pm and let me know what you might be looking for.

Thanks for those links. Pricey little buggers. Fujinon lenses have my interest

Richard S. (rich815) · May 25, 2013

Klainmeister said:
Thanks for those links. Pricey little buggers. Fujinon lenses have my interest

I love my Fujinons. 90, 135, 180 and a 250. Got them all from forum members at LFF. Don't think I paid more than $275 for any, some much cheaper.

Klainmeister · May 25, 2013

Well, I am just gonna get a new board for the Schneider 210 I have, but the 90mm Linhof is staying with the Graflex and the 6x17 back. Looking for a Fujinon or Nikkor 125-135mm 5.6 in a Copal 0. I've always liked any Fuji and Nikkor stuff I've used.

JPD · May 26, 2013

E. von Hoegh said:
No cable release socket? It must have been broken off or removed, this can be replaced.

Some Compur-Rapid/Synchro-Compur shutters made for folders, like the Agfa Record, don't have a cable release socket.

Doremus Scudder · May 26, 2013

FWIW, making your own lensboards is not at all difficult if you have a bit of woodworking or metalworking experience. Plus, there are lots of used and after-market boards on eBay and other sites for not very much. FYI, if you are receiving a later model Zone VI camera (the Wisner or Ritter cameras with longer bellows) then it takes a 4x4 inch lensboard.

As for your 00 shutter... I would likely pick up another lens and keep your present 90mm for your Graphic. It will most probably be cheaper to find a used lens than to buy a shutter, have it overhauled and have your lens adapted to it.

I like the 90mm, 135mm, 200mm, 300mm kit for starters, if that helps in your lens choice. The spacing is fairly even, with each successive lens being about 150% longer than the preceding.

Best,

Doremus

www.DoremusScudder.com

Klainmeister · May 26, 2013

Thanks for the help. The camera is sitting here and it's the original Zone VI Tachihara model that takes the Linhof style boards. They're so thin, not sure if I can do that myself. I found a couple for $20, so it seems fair.

I was offered a 90mm Super Angulon in a Copal 0 from a friend, plus watching a 150mm 5.6 Symmar-s, which would give me 90mm, 150mm, and 210mm all Schneider. Should be a good start methinks.

Ian Grant · May 26, 2013

I find 90mm, 150mm & 210mm a good working combination, I also have a 65mm that has got me shots where I need something wider than the 90mm. The Rodenstock 150mm f5.6 Sironar-N is a n excellent match to Schneider lenses and you can find Calumet Caltar branded versions of the Symmar & Sironar-N in the US which are often cheaper and only differ in name. The Caltar S-II is a Symmar S and the II-N is the Sironar N

That's the right sort of price for Linhof style boards.

Ian

ntenny · May 26, 2013

To piggyback on the OP's question, I've never really understood how standard the shutter mountings are. If I get a good lens in a bad shutter, can I be basically assured of being able to just unscrew it and stick it on a good example of the same shutter? What about the same size but different brands (Compur 1 vs. Copal 1, or whatever)? What about going from a barrel to a shutter?

Yes, these are remedial questions, but I'm a pretty remedial-level LF shooter!

-NT

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