Latest Sales Information

dsullivan · Jun 26, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
Well, just this year another photo company (B&W only) went out of business. Kodak and Ilford seem to be holding their own. That is all I can say. This is in the face of the fact that Ilford does not publish data and Kodak won't talk. So, my data have to come from "donors". Sorry.

PE

That was the general impression from the Marketing Director on the recent Ilford tour as well, holding their own nicely but admitted it's been a little tricky to gauge what the market's doing because there's an element of picking up business from other companies that have pulled out of the black and white market.

He did also point out that they they're a bit more agile with a multi-product coating line coating all of their film and paper products.

David.

analogfotog · Jun 26, 2007

As long as Ilford can continue to make a profit selling materials, they will produce. I am a 100% Ilford user (with the exception of other manufacturers' products which I still have in stock; when they are gone, they will be replaced with the equivalent Ilford product), and intend to support them, one-hundred per cent.

They are, so to speak a "one-trick: pony. And that's not meant to be a slur, not at all!! They have commited themselves to manufacturing B&W materials, with no sideline business to fall back on, in case of hard times. Kind of reminds me of a farmer I met a few years ago, who told me that he and his wife had no income, except from their farm. Nobody in their household worked outside the farm, so it was all or nothing for them, too.

And so it is with Ilford, down there on the photo farm, as it were...

Alex Bishop-Thorpe · Jun 26, 2007

My local university built three new darkrooms in 2005 and black and white is a required year long part of the course - the first part of the course, actually. I believe this is what's supporting the 3 photography stores in my rather small city, but when I see the trade so prominently displayed I can't get too gloomy about things. I can still buy hundreds of dollars of film on demand, I can still buy paper and chemicals off the shelf, and even new bulk loaders and film canister openers. While there's demand they will be products, and the next generation is being educated. I'm not imagining any of my cameras are gonna become historical artifacts sitting on my shelf any time soon.

Photo Engineer · Jun 26, 2007

And here in Rochster, with the big photo school at RIT, it is becoming increasingly difficult to get analog photo products.

As for darkroom work, RIT will not allow students to process their own color because "the chemicals are too dangerous". This I was told by the students who work at the "Campus Connection" photo store there.

PE

Helen B · Jun 26, 2007

analogfotog said:
...
They are, so to speak a "one-trick: pony. And that's not meant to be a slur, not at all!! They have commited themselves to manufacturing B&W materials, with no sideline business to fall back on, in case of hard times.
...

Harman are producing inkjet paper with a baryta base at the high price, high quality end of the market. I haven't seen any mention of it, or link to it, on www.ilfordphoto.com. This is not the same inkjet paper that is sold as Ilford inkjet paper by Ilford Imaging Switzerland / Oji Paper Co.

Best,
Helen

Steve Smith · Jun 26, 2007

Helen B said:
This is not the same inkjet paper that is sold as Ilford inkjet paper by Ilford Imaging Switzerland / Oji Paper Co.

Best,
Helen

On our tour of the Ilford factory a couple of weeks ago, we were told that they are currently coating inkjet paper for Ilford Imaging in Switzerland.

(unless I misheard or misunderstood!).

Steve.

Helen B · Jun 26, 2007

Steve,

I hoped that my post (which was primarily about Harman baryta-based inkjet paper) would be interpreted to mean that the inkjet paper being made by Harman and sold under the Harman brand was not the same as the inkjet paper being sold under the Ilford brand by Ilford Imaging.

Best,
Helen

donbga · Jun 26, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
As for darkroom work, RIT will not allow students to process their own color because "the chemicals are too dangerous". This I was told by the students who work at the "Campus Connection" photo store there.

PE

I can't imagine what they tell their Chemistry majors. That's plain absurd.

David A. Goldfarb · Jun 26, 2007

Helen B said:
Steve,

I hoped that my post (which was primarily about Harman baryta-based inkjet paper) would be interpreted to mean that the inkjet paper being made by Harman and sold under the Harman brand was not the same as the inkjet paper being sold under the Ilford brand by Ilford Imaging.

Best,
Helen

This is my understanding as well from the people I spoke from Ilford Imaging (the inkjet folks licensing the name) and from Harman at the Wynit booth at PMA in Las Vegas. From what I understood, Harman is looking at qualities like matching the look of MGFB IV with their inkjet papers.

gr82bart · Jun 26, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
As for darkroom work, RIT will not allow students to process their own color because "the chemicals are too dangerous". This I was told by the students who work at the "Campus Connection" photo store there.

Add lawyers to the list of warriors against science. This is going to be a big list.

Regards, Art.

kman627 · Jun 26, 2007

I picture myself twenty years from now, late at night meeting a man in a dark alley trying to score some black market Rodinal!

thebanana · Jun 26, 2007

And I'll be there...

Oren Grad · Jun 26, 2007

David A. Goldfarb said:
This is my understanding as well from the people I spoke from Ilford Imaging (the inkjet folks licensing the name) and from Harman at the Wynit booth at PMA in Las Vegas. From what I understood, Harman is looking at qualities like matching the look of MGFB IV with their inkjet papers.

This is correct. The Harman inkjet papers are a distinctive line unique to Ilford/Harman.

Also, re one of the other posts, it's not true that Ilford/Harman has "no sideline business to fall back on, in case of hard times". The essence of their current strategy is, in fact, to find other applications of their capabilities in formulation and coating even as they continue producing analog B&W products, precisely so that declining sales of analog B&W products don't have to bear the entire load of keeping the infrastructure going. This is no secret - they're very candid about it.

IMO, this is very wise on their part. Ideological purity isn't what's going to keep analog B&W products on the market for those of us who want to keep using them - intelligent, opportunistic, hard-nosed business savvy together with a desire to preserve analog photography is what it's going to take.

The Ilford/Harman team seems to be following that route about as well as anyone can at this point. Much kudos to them for the reality of what they're doing, not for a romantic illusion of what they are doing, or of what they might do in some alternate universe that's different from ours.

Oren Grad · Jun 26, 2007

Helen B said:
Harman are producing inkjet paper with a baryta base at the high price, high quality end of the market. I haven't seen any mention of it, or link to it, on www.ilfordphoto.com.

Helen, the Harman inkjet line is now mentioned on the Ilford Photo home page.

AgX · Jun 26, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
As for darkroom work, RIT will not allow students to process their own color because "the chemicals are too dangerous".

I just visited here in Europe an art academy. In the bathroom of the photography department, next to the urinals, 150L barrrels, with funnels inserted, were stored to deposit darkroom chemicals in.
I assume in the Rochester Institute of Technology the hazmat unit of the fire service would have been called...

Arvee · Jun 26, 2007

Taken from the 1Q 2007 report from Kodak Film Products Group:

"Film Products Group sales were $458 million, down from $500 million in the year-ago quarter, representing a decrease of 8%, a significantly lower decline than has been recently experienced, reflecting high single-digit year-over-year growth in the entertainment film business. Earnings from operations were $74 million, compared with $51 million in the year-ago quarter, representing a strong earnings improvement in the face of declining revenue. During the first quarter of 2007, the group achieved a 16% operating margin, as compared with 10% in the year-ago quarter, which was ahead of company expectations. The operating margin performance resulted from growth in entertainment imaging and also reflects the companys actions to reduce traditional infrastructure ahead of declines. This improved performance was particularly impressive given higher silver costs during the quarter."

Underline is mine...

Photo Engineer · Jun 26, 2007

Yes, you are correct, the decline that has been ongoing in the last few years and that was as high as 30% per quarter for a while has begun to level off. I had mentioned this in another thread IIRC.

The report also notes that the entertainment film growth, which is motion picture film. The major drop is in chemicals and B&W film at Kodak and elsewhere. Even so, Kodak and Ilford hold their own, but others are being hit hard I guess.

I don't know the cross comparisons nor actual data. Many companies don't publish data or publish in a form that cross comparison is nearly impossible.

So, Fred, considering that the report is optimistic in order to satisfy investors, and is telling the truth, what new do we have here that differs from the OP? There is an 8% decline. Probably most of it is in B&W and chemistry, as I just noted.

PE

Arvee · Jun 26, 2007

I always like to see the hard numbers and make my own judgements.

I guess that comes from a lot of years of buying and selling stock from published data rather than listen to the 'pump and dumper's' claims that flood my mailbox.

Fred

Photo Engineer · Jun 26, 2007

I understand fully.

PE

Scott Peters · Jun 28, 2007

15 years ago I helped finance an LBO of a WOODEN match company! Oh my gosh, who would do such a silly thing. I mean after all with the proliferation of lighters and paper matches, who in the world is buying wooden matches? Well, the revenues aren't anywhere near film and they are quite profitable...yes, revenues in the 10's of millions, close to 100 million actually. Wanna know why they are so profitable....little to no competition.

I have financed several 'dying' industries in my past as well that are cash cows....

Supply and demand. And there is still demand for film and raw chemicals that make film.

1st quarter sales of $458 million is a far cry from dead, with $74 million earnings from operations...I know a lot of businesses that wish they had this problem.

Arvee · Jun 28, 2007

At the risk of being 'toasted,' I wouldn't mind if the film/chemical industry increased their prices by even a third at this juncture. I still enjoy film over d*****l immensely and would continue to purchase the necessary materials at the same rate.

Cost of materials is piddly compared to other hobbies/leisure activities. A few extra $$$ to ensure that our suppliers remain healthy is just good sense.

Fred

Paul Howell · Jun 28, 2007

Fred Aspen said:
At the risk of being 'toasted,' I wouldn't mind if the film/chemical industry increased their prices by even a third at this juncture. I still enjoy film over d*****l immensely and would continue to purchase the necessary materials at the same rate.

Cost of materials is piddly compared to other hobbies/leisure activities. A few extra $$$ to ensure that our suppliers remain healthy is just good sense.

Fred

I dont think the availability or cost of film and chemistry will be a problem other than needing to mail order, the long term issue is going the availability of new film cameras, at least in 35mm and MF which is often the entry to LF.

HerrBremerhaven · Jun 28, 2007

Paul Howell said:
I dont think the availability or cost of film and chemistry will be a problem other than needing to mail order, the long term issue is going the availability of new film cameras, at least in 35mm and MF which is often the entry to LF.

There are great used camera resources, and many places that do repairs. Considering that I have a working 1937 camera, and no parts were available new to make this work again, I would imagine many much newer cameras could be continuously repaired to remain functional. The limitation might be cameras that could still be repaired.

I also look at the other possibility, that film cameras become almost boutique items, with extreme luxury prices. That basically happened already at Leica. In medium format, ALPA show another possible future path. The situation is better in large format, with many companies and many price points.

I think there is enough used gear in good enough condition that we could reasonably expect a few more decades of good choices in film cameras and lenses. Just seeing that a place like Dead Link Removed can thrive on used gear is enough to convince me that this market will continue, and that is without glancing through many listings on EBAY.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
Dead Link Removed

Tom Kershaw · Jun 28, 2007

Gordon,

I could imagine Voigtlander producing a 6x6 SLR system at some point.

Tom.

Brac · Jun 30, 2007

Secondhand cameras can often be kept going for decades but there must be question marks over some of the cameras made in the last 20 years which have extensively used electronics. Plus how long will the LCD screens last? A Nikon instruction manual remarks that these can fade over time. Will these cameras be repairable in 10 years time, let alone 50?

Latest Sales Information

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency