Large format with filters: 2 ND0.6 & 1 ND0.9 together

Forum statistics

Threads
198,993
Messages
2,784,272
Members
99,763
Latest member
bk2000
Recent bookmarks
0

Treymac

Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Messages
114
Format
Medium Format
Hey guys.

In my photo class we're finally using the large format cameras. For the project, I want to have a very long exposure in the daytime, but I can't get a high ND filter in time. But I can get 2 ND 0.6 filters, and a ND 0.9. So what happens when I put them all together. Say it's sunny out, and the aperture is a f22. I'm guessing the shutter may be down to around 1/60th of a second with that f22. So with the filters, how slow would I be able to get it down to?
 

2F/2F

Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2008
Messages
8,031
Location
Los Angeles,
Format
Multi Format
The actual density of the ND filters you have is stated directly. With some ND filters, the strength is expressed in filter factors (2x, 4x, 8x, etc.), and others are expressed in plain-ol' stops (ND-1, ND-2, ND-3, etc.). With the filters that are named for the actual densities, all you need to know is that each change of 0.1 corresponds to the change you get when changing exposure by 1/3 of a stop. Therefore, 0.3 filters are one-stop filters, 0.6 filters are two-stop filters, the 0.9 is a three-stop filter, and so on and so forth.

So, you know that 0.6 can be thought of as a two-stop filter, and 0.9 can be thought of as a three-stop filter. When stacking filters that are expressed in stops or in density, as opposed to in filter factors, you simply add the number of stops or the density of each filter to get the total: seven stops or 2.1.

To work through why this is, say that your 0.9 is the one that is closest to the lens, and the two 0.6's are on the outside. The light passing through the first 0.6 filter is reduced in intensity by 75 percent; two stops equal two halvings, or 1/4 remaining. The remaining light then passes through the second 0.6 filter, and it is reduced by 75 percent; another two stops equal another two halvings. You are now at four halvings (or 1/2 times itself four times = 1/16) of your original amount of light. This remaining light passes through the 0.9 filter, and loses another three halvings, which is 87.5 percent, or 7/8, leaving 1/8 of the 1/16 left over from the original amount of light to makes it through to the lens. 1/8 x 1/16 = 1/128. How many times do you have to split the number 1 in half to get to 1/128? 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, 1/64, 1/128: seven times, thus seven stops. Switch the order of the filters, think it through like this, and you will see that you get the same result in the end.

So, you have cut seven stops before the light even reaches your lens. Then you have your diaphragm, which is capable of closing down to block even more light.

Also, there is less than 100 percent efficiency of transmission at every glass surface along the light's path, including the glass in your lens. (If your diaphragm's setting was expressed in t stops instead of f stops, this would be accounted for.) When stacking so many filters, you may lose enough liht due to inefficiency to warrant a mild exposure compensation. With that many filters, I would probably add 1/3 stop myself, though if you are shooting negative film, it is OK to err on the side of overexposure a bit.

If you are using 100-speed film in sunny 16 conditions, using f/22 you should have a '60 shutter, shooting unfiltered. With the stack of filters, half that seven times, and you have your shutter speed: '30, '15, '8, '4, '2, 1, 2. Two seconds. Open a fraction of a stop to compensate for the inefficiency of the glass, and you get two seconds at f/16-1/2 or 16-2/3 (depending on whether your apertures are set in half stops or third stops).

To get predictable results, you need to know your film's reciprocity characteristics when you start using exposures this long. There are many threads on this already.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Q.G.

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2007
Messages
5,535
Location
Netherlands
Format
Medium Format
There is no need for an additional correction, on top of that for the densities of the filters, and maybe one to counter the Schwarzschild-effect.
 
OP
OP

Treymac

Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Messages
114
Format
Medium Format
Ok, thanks. I wasn`t sure how`d they`d play together. I might go 2 stops under exposed to get a darker photo to resemble night in the daytime. And that way I could bring it from 2 to 8 seconds.

Another question, do you guys think a 67mm circular filter would cover a large format lens?
 

Q.G.

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2007
Messages
5,535
Location
Netherlands
Format
Medium Format
Depends on the lens. So impossible to say without knowing which one.
 

paul_c5x4

Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2009
Messages
1,942
Location
Ye Olde England
Format
Large Format
I have heard of people using a piece of glass from a welding mask - These are available in several shades of darkness, and would give you a very long exposure. The downside is they are only available in one colour - A very dark green.
 
OP
OP

Treymac

Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Messages
114
Format
Medium Format
If I were to use something that didn't have readings on it like 0.9, how would I know what shutter speed to use? Could I just hold it in front of a light meter, like the piece of welders screen?
 

Q.G.

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2007
Messages
5,535
Location
Netherlands
Format
Medium Format
Yes. Exactly that.
Point a meter at something bright, and get a reading. Then put the dark glass in front of the meter and meter the same spot and get a second reading. The difference is how much you will need to compensate.
Take a note of that, and you'll never need to meter through the dark thing again. (Which is a definite advantage when the thing you want to eter isn't very bright to begin with.)
 

paul_c5x4

Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2009
Messages
1,942
Location
Ye Olde England
Format
Large Format
Richard Littlewood is the guy I had in mind that uses welding glass as a filter - He indicates that it gives around 14 stops. Googling around, others suggest perhaps 10 stops is appropriate, but I suspect it will depend on the glass you get.

Be warned - This stuff is not coated, nor is it optical quality to the same standard as Hoya or Lee. but then what would you expect for a couple of bucks.
 
OP
OP

Treymac

Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Messages
114
Format
Medium Format
I might give that a try, run a spare 120 roll to test it out first. What kind of places do you think I would have to contact to find that kind of glass?
 

paul_c5x4

Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2009
Messages
1,942
Location
Ye Olde England
Format
Large Format
Local auto store, a machine mart, maybe a local garage that does bodywork. Failing that, yellow pages and look for welding consumables.
 
OP
OP

Treymac

Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Messages
114
Format
Medium Format
Ok, I just picked up a piece of welders glass. Apparently there are different levels of darkness on them, I got a 10. I`m going to go test it out in a couple of hours. I`ll let you guys know how it works.
 

keithwms

Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2006
Messages
6,220
Location
Charlottesvi
Format
Multi Format
Alternatively, to do long exposures, you can make yourself a pinhole (e.g. in a lenscap) or you can reduce development time and thus effectively lower the speed of your film. Just some stray thoughts....
 

Q.G.

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2007
Messages
5,535
Location
Netherlands
Format
Medium Format
Crossed polarizers haven't been mentioned yet, i believe.
So here goes: crossed polarizers.
:wink:
 
OP
OP

Treymac

Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Messages
114
Format
Medium Format
Crossed polarizers sounds interesting. I broke my 67mm :sad: At least is saved my 10-22mm lens. How many stops does that give you?
 

Q.G.

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2007
Messages
5,535
Location
Netherlands
Format
Medium Format
In theory, extremely many.
In practice... i really do not know. Never metered it. Sorry! Will do so tomorrow (it's past midnight over here.)

Crossed polarizers aren't perfect, but leave a blueish light coming through (a bit depending on what foil is used in the filter).
Polarizers also aren't cheap.
 
OP
OP

Treymac

Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Messages
114
Format
Medium Format
Ok, so I did some test shots this afternoon. I took a shot every 5 seconds until 1 minute, then 1 at 1min_30sec, and 1 at 2min. I didn`t do any prints, but from looking at the negs, the 2 minute exposure looks the best. And this was at f22. So I`m thinking I could even go to 3 minutes. But I want to do some prints first to see what it actually does look like.

I`ll do the prints and scan&post them. I imaging that because the glass is green, its going to look like a green filter was used. It`s B&W so that`s ok though.
 

tubetime

Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2007
Messages
23
Location
Canada's Lef
Format
4x5 Format
I like to keep it simple. I label my ND filters by stops. 2 stop, 3 stop, etc. As already mentioned you can stack them and just add up the stops. So, if I put on a 6 stop and a 2 stop ND then I have reduced the light by 8 stops. If the reading is f16 @ 1/60 sec with no filters, then I count backwards and the exposure would be f16 @ 4 seconds (I think, I'm mathematically challenged so usually use the light meter to count the stops). You have to then adjust this with an allowance for reciprocity and a filter factor if you're using, say, a red filter - and Bob's your uncle. Using welder's glass would introduce, I think, a colored filter factor that would be really hard to figure out.
 
OP
OP

Treymac

Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Messages
114
Format
Medium Format
Hey guys. So I just picked up the large format camera, and I realized something. The lens actually closes down to f64. That's almost pinhole tiny. I took a light meter outside right now, it's dusk, but I put the meter at 60s and that only requires an aperture of f45. So I plan to take my photo's while it's raining, or at least very cloudy. The light in my pictures will still be minimal, close to dusk like it is now.

Even without the filters, I could achieve over a minute just by using such a small aperture. At the very least, I could even just use a very minor ND filter for better quality than the welders glass, but I don't need anything really dense like I thought.

What do you guys think, am I missing something?
 

Q.G.

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2007
Messages
5,535
Location
Netherlands
Format
Medium Format
Could do it that way, yes.
But remember that stopping down does more than just reduce light levels at the film plane: it also reduces overall sharpness and creates bigger DoF. Not necessarily things to worry about, depending on what you want to achieve.
 
OP
OP

Treymac

Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Messages
114
Format
Medium Format
What would be worse for quality, a tiny aperture, a larger aperture (but not sure how large) with low quality welders glass, or a larger aperture using 3 different ND filters?
 

2F/2F

Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2008
Messages
8,031
Location
Los Angeles,
Format
Multi Format
They'd probably all give acceptable quality for most people, but my gut would say to avoid the welder's glass, especially if you have ND filters on hand. Since it was not designed with photographic optical quality in mind, I would think it would degrade sharpness the most. My two cents, not based on any tests or anything. It could be that three ND filters stacked is actually worse. If you get the welder's glass, you can test and then let us all know.
 
OP
OP

Treymac

Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Messages
114
Format
Medium Format
Hmmm, I'd like to do a shot with each setup, but I've only got 10 shots, and the exposure time will take a lot of guessing with each one. And I need to be taking about 3-4 different locations. I wonder if I could try the setup with my digital camera to see the result, then choose the best one with the same exposure times for the large camera.

Does that sound like a good plan?
 

2F/2F

Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2008
Messages
8,031
Location
Los Angeles,
Format
Multi Format
If you have a digital camera, I would definitely use it to see what the various filters do. Shoot on a tripod in constant light to eliminate some of the variables. You want to meter the same exact composition and level of light both with and without filters. You don't even need to shoot the pix to see what happens. You can just look at the meter reading. A good exposure for a digital camera will be different than a good exposure with film, so I would not use the digital camera as an exposure meter for the film camera. However, the light meter in the digital camera (or any camera with a TTL meter, for that matter) will certainly work to see what the filters do.
 
OP
OP

Treymac

Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Messages
114
Format
Medium Format
I just did a quick metering with a hand held meter off my porch using one ND 0.6 filter. It's kind of cloudy with some sun breaking through. Where I was it was in a cloudy but kind of light out. Anyways, I did a reading using 15s. Without the filter it said f64, then when I put the filter in front, it dropped it down to between f16-f22. Can that be right, and how many actual stops is that?

[edit: n/m how many stops that is, I looked it up and it's between 2-3 stops. But still, being able to do 15 seconds in the daytime seems impossible without a filter, or even with a weak ND filter.]

Also, why would a stand alone meter be different than one through my digital camera.
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom