Large Format Debate

Darkroom317 · Apr 18, 2010

A local photographer in one of the clubs I belong to has offered me a Deardorff 4 X 5 View Camera, I'm guessing it may be a Field Camera, with lenses and holders for $1000. However, I am a minoring in journalism and I have also been thinking about a press camera, particularly a Speed Graphic. I shoot street as well as landscapes. Can any of you give me advice on these two cameras.
Also, I am afraid that if start to use Large Format that I may stop using my RB67 for shooting outside.

mike c · Apr 18, 2010

Need a tripod with the Deardorff,they are very nice cameras,but not used for modern Journalism.The Speed graphic is a wonderful versatile camera of yesterday news photography,they do not have the movement the Deardoff has. think the RB67 or a35mm would work better for Journalism ,but thats up to you.

Darkroom317 · Apr 18, 2010

Thanks, either way I am going to need a new tripod. I barely get by with my RB67 with the one I currently have. Any tripod suggestions? What movements is the Deardorff capable of?

keithwms · Apr 18, 2010

Darkroom317 can you direct us to some of your work and say something about your future ambitions? You've given too little info for a real discussion, in my opinion. I mean, street and landscape... that's very broad.

Colour? B&w? What kind of light... etc.

Darkroom317 · Apr 18, 2010

I don't currently have a website. My future ambition is to go into photo-journalism which sadly would probably mean digital. I shoot both color and b&w. Currently my main subject of landscape has been waterfalls. I am mainly interested in the movements possible with large format.

Darkroom317 · Apr 18, 2010

Actually, here is my deviant art page Dead Link Removed
Completely forgot about it.

mopar_guy · Apr 18, 2010

Some things to consider with the move up to 4x5 are film handling and processing, weather the negatives will be enlarged, etc. The cost of the camera, lenses and film holders is only part of the picture. It is your decision how you will make the move to large format. The Speed Graphic is a capable camera and a usable copy can be had for considerably less than the $1000 you are thinking about. You can also start by contact printing. Just my two cents worth.

eddie · Apr 18, 2010

The camera would be great for your landscape work. Depending on the lenses included, it could be a terrific deal. What lenses come with it?

Darkroom317 · Apr 18, 2010

Not sure what lenses. But I think he said 3 lenses were included. He also has an Omega 4 X 5 enlarger but I don't have room for it. So, yes contact printing would be the start.

removed account4 · Apr 18, 2010

the deardorff is a nice camera.

you mention that you use your rb for street work and landscape stuff ...
a speed graphic will be like a big rb, it has very little movements ( tiny bit of shift, and front tilt )
but it is fun to use. film for it, while it is available, is expensive compared to 120 film.
on a student budget i would either get the speed graphic ( because it is "fun" ) or stick to your RB.

a good tripod to look into might be an older tiltall.
they usually cost somewhere around 50-75$ and they are sturdy.

does your photo department have a 4x5 camera you could borrow for coursework ?
sometimes they do ( probably in storage ? ) it might be worth just borrowing, rather than
paying someone a lot of money for something you might not really use ...
(not to mention, you could pick up a used speed graphic for a few hundred and a 135 or 150mm lens for not very much,
a few film holders, dark cloth, and tripod for WAY less than 1000$ .. and if that was your budget you could use the rest
for film.)

good luck!
john

Darkroom317 · Apr 18, 2010

I go to a small community college currently. They don't supply cameras for the photo classes, which are 35mm only. I work for the student newspaper and use a 5D Mark II that my grandfather bought. I am going to wait a few months to buy either, so budget is a small issue. Currently for street I use a Rolleicord V or a
Canonet GIII 17. Thanks for all the advice.

Here is my facebook as well: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?p...161973#!/profile.php?id=534035943&ref=profile

I don't any of my street photos currently.

keithwms · Apr 18, 2010

Darkroom317 said:
I am mainly interested in the movements possible with large format.

Let me suggest considering a 2x3 camera such as a linhof or horseman VH, or similar. The latter can take the rb67 backs.

I suggest this smaller large format for several reasons. First of all, these systems are very transportable and compact, and there are a number of superb and affordable lenses that cover 2x3. Second, you can shoot roll film or sheet film... or digital whenever you need. You can also shoot instant film quite affordably in this smaller format. Third, the linhof systems offer very extensive movements; the horseman is more limited but still will provide most of what you could ever need (my main gripe about the horseman is the difficulty of shooting ultrawide, but that's mostly an issue for indoor architecture). The horseman has the advantage of a much lower upfront cost than any of the linhofs. Oh and fourth, several of the 2x3 cameras offer rangefinder focusing. That is a nice thing sometimes. I generally preferred to use a monocular viewer with my horseman, but sometimes the GG was nice. Just a bit harder than looking at 4x5 GG. Finally, if you like pano and are willing to stitch, the 2x3s provide a very nice platform for stitched panos. You can do that with 2x3 sheet / roll film or with a smaller format e.g. your DSLR.

Happy shopping.

Darkroom317 · Apr 18, 2010

Thanks, Keith. I hadn't really considered those.

keithwms · Apr 18, 2010

Based on the interests you expressed, I really think you should.....

smieglitz · Apr 18, 2010

Ask the seller if the Deardorff is really a 4x5 or if it is a 5x7 with a reducing back. The more common Deardorff of the two was really a 5x7 marketed with a reducing back. That model is called a 4x5 Special. The true 4x5 Deardorff is referred to as a "Baby Deardorff" and I suspect is much rarer and worth considerably more. See Ken Hough's Deardorff page for more information on camera models. Another point to consider is if the camera is actually a Special, the 5x7 back allows for a bigger contact print. 4x5 contacts generally seem to small to me, but a 5x7 is a nice print.

I've owned and used quite a few 4x5s and the Deardorff is among my favorites and the only one I've kept over the years. It is much more flexible in its functionality than a press camera like the Speed Graphic. Plus, it will hold its value and you might be able to sell it for more than you paid for it. $1000 would be a great price for one in good condition, especially if it is the later model with front swings and the deal includes holders and 3 good lenses.

One thing to be aware of with the Speed Graphic is that the camera focuses by moving the front standard. This changes the perspective slightly. It may be no big deal to most, but I always found it irritating. The Deardorff and similar field cameras usually can focus by moving either the back or front standard.

What lenses are offered with the camera?

jimgalli · Apr 19, 2010

Speed Graphics are like the bus. If you miss one another one comes along in 15 minutes. Deardorff's otoh are special. Every one of 'em. $1000 with lenses is probably a robust good deal. I like the special with both backs. Very versatile and has easy to find 4X4 lens boards, front swings. I paid $1400+ for mine 5 years ago with no lenses.

Chazzy · Apr 19, 2010

It sounds as if you like to do hand-held work, and on that basis, the Speed Graphic is clearly a better choice. But Deardorffs are wonderful cameras. If you choose to do 4x5 street photography, that ought to be interesting, since hardly anyone is doing that. If landscapes are your chief interest, go with the Deardorff.

Joe VanCleave · Apr 19, 2010

I'll play the devil's advocate.

Don't confuse wanting to become a photojournalist with wanting to do large format, for whatever reason. There're only a handfull of journalists now who use large format; I can only think of David Burnett at the moment, and not all of his work is LF; it's a specialty tool that he uses, along with film cameras like Holgas, when the need arises.

You should think about what your photojournalism classes will require in the way of gear, and go with that; most likely, it will be a Canon dSLR.

As for doing LF for your own enjoyment, that's fine; but don't try to confuse this with photojournalism; you should be aware that the PJ profession is seriously being challenged for its very survival; many media corporations have down-sized their PJ staff, both international in scope and local outlets, too. This would be a tough career to begin; but follow your heart nontheless.

Okay, end of lecture.

Now, if you want to do LF, think about how you are going to print your images. Will you be scanning them, and printing digitally? There's a skillset that can only be acquired through much practice, and equipment requirements that are expensive for a student budget. Does your school permit you access to LF scanners and high-end printers?

OTOH, if you want to print optically, you need a darkroom setup with a 4x5 enlarger. These can be acquired for pennies on the dollar; mine was purchased off a newspaper advertisement for $125, including several lenses. Very inexpensive equipment outlay, but a considerable investment in the learning curve to be a good printer. Are you willing to commit the time to learn? Do you have the facilities to setup and maintain a LF darkroom?

You can also choose to contact print your 4x5 negatives; no need for an enlarger; you can get away with using a convertible darkroom space like a bathroom. And there's still good papers available, especially Lodima from Michael Smith's website for contact printing.

Of course, I'm talking B/W here. Are you interested in color work? That's a whole 'nother discussion.

Good luck with your decision, keep us posted.

~Joe

k_jupiter · Apr 19, 2010

Joe is just beating around the bush. Take up Nuclear Engineering or Brain surgery to support yourself, shoot your camera when you feel inspired. I went through NESOP many years ago knowing I was jst going to learn as much as I could about photography and support myself in the technical world. Works for me.

I have a Speed, (or 6 of various sizes) and an 8x10 Deardorf. If ya got the money, get the dorff and never look back. A speed will come around sooner or later and you will be able to afford it. A dorff? Grab it, cherish it, hug it, call it 'Bill' (or whatever)

And no, when I shoot my Deardorff, I don't forget my rb67. That still gets used a lot.

Tripods? Small Gitzo os so will work for the 4x5 dorff or a Speed.

tim in san jose

John Koehrer · Apr 19, 2010

I think the best way to describe a DD is by calling it a folding view camera.
There were early 8X10's that didn't have front swing but don't know if that was true of the 4X5. I think about the only movement they don't have is rear rise or fall.
I'd like to have a special with the 5X7 back.
What lenses would come with it?

smieglitz · Apr 19, 2010

My DD 4x5 Special does not have front swings. I believe the transition was made in 1938, IIRC.

David A. Goldfarb · Apr 19, 2010

There are a lot of things that are journalism that don't necessarily involve catching a fleeting moment with a handheld camera. Even things that seem like chaos might be photographable with a tripod. Remember that iconic photo of the truck that was destroyed when a steam vent exploded in midtown Manhattan a few years ago, and the photographs of office workers covered in dirt staggering away from the scene? I read an account by the photographer, and he mentioned that he was carrying a tripod on his backpack, and one of the office workers pictured recalled the photographer with his camera on a tripod. Maybe that situation would have been a bit tricky for a view camera (no problem photographing the truck, but people milling about instead of holding still aren't usually good LF subjects), but everyone has their own threshold, and once you've got a routine going with the camera, setup can be surprisingly quick.

David Burnett has been using a Speed Graphic with a fast lens usually to photograph things like politicians making speeches. He seems generally to be set up in a photographers' gallery, and sometimes he can use a tripod. After all, there are usually videographers there, and usually they have tripods.

Martin Schoeller does lots of large format portraits of celebrities, athletes and political figures for media use, and he sells prints as fine art and publishes books of them. I don't know what camera he uses, but it's the kind of work that could certainly be done with a Deardorff.

Christopher Walrath · Apr 19, 2010

Darkroom317 said:
Also, I am afraid that if start to use Large Format that I may stop using my RB67 for shooting outside.

Not necessarily a bad thing if you think about it.

keithwms · Apr 19, 2010

David A. Goldfarb said:
Martin Schoeller does lots of large format portraits of celebrities, athletes and political figures for media use, and he sells prints as fine art and publishes books of them. I don't know what camera he uses, but it's the kind of work that could certainly be done with a Deardorff.

I recall that at least several of the "big heads" were done with an RZ and 140 macro lens.

Charles Webb · Apr 20, 2010

The asking price for "Baby" Deardorff is well below the normal selling price. The Deardorff will do most anything you ask of it. That fact that a lense or lenses is included makes the $1000.00 even a better price.
The others who have posted are pretty much right on with their comments. However the "Baby Deardorff" is an opportunity to buy
one of the most hunted for cameras in the world. If you deside not to buy it for yourself, let me know! I would deffinitely be interested in buying it for the same $1000.00 dollars. Also would be happy to pay shipping costs.

Charlie Webb

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