Lack of affordable new cameras = death knell for film photography?

Luckless · May 14, 2020

A camera is a ultimately always a box around a light sensitive surface, and a hole that allows you to have [usually] precise control over the light that enters it.

The extra bells and whistles beyond that mostly come down to how much effort and resources you have to put into it. And today the access to resources is so much higher than it has been in the past, and it is kind of impressive the things you can do with a tiny little easily accessible micro controller and cheap sensors and switches. With more and more people getting into microcontroller programming and circuit design, I really don't believe that we're likely to see an era where even a complex camera is an excessively difficult item to obtain for relative moderate prices if interest in photography holds.

I do have some worries over lenses more so than cameras. Specifically coated lenses, but even then you'll have people even more interested in the matter than I am poking around and developing new gear, not so much because of any strong or specific demand for it, but simply because creating it is fun.

Not sure if I'll get to it this summer, as I've been oddly busy for someone living fairly locked down, but I do hope to begin grinding and polishing my own large format lenses in the next few years.

Have a few shutter designs on the go. Still debating between a few options, and whether or not to go with clockwork or digitally timing. There are so many options really.

JWMster · May 14, 2020

JT

jtk said:
Marriage isn't "dated and doomed." Probably 1/3 of unmarried people do it today, and probably 10% of married people refrain from doing it again. It's like film photography in that respect. A famous American politician bought at least two of his three known marriages and paid a tremendous amount to those two to be able to do the third.

As a guy married 40 years... of course it's not doomed. My point was that the forecast by Gloria Steinhem and Co. was outrageous at the time and proved false by the industry allied to it today. Similarly... cameras will revive and shoot any number of ways. Digital is convenient and suits many. Film is fun and suits others. Seems to be plenty of folks with money enough to burn these days. The one thing I'm not doing is spending $30,000 plus for a camera or a digital anachromatic back.... I'd love to - don't get me wrong. But with me, it's a hobby.

StepheKoontz · May 14, 2020

I have never bought a new film camera, ever. I've been shooting for 35 years, so I don't think not being able to buy a new camera is going to stop me now lol.

AndyH · May 14, 2020

About four weeks ago, I set out to recreate the Nikon F outfit I had in the 1970s, my first "pro" level system, because I noticed I had a couple of pieces of remaining Nikon kit (flash hot shoe adaptor and reversing ring) and wondered whether they were worth anything. When I saw what F system kit was going for, I decided to build my system backward from those two minor pieces, in whatever order the bargains happened to come along. Here, with prices, is a list of what I bought, in the order that I bought it. All of it came from eBay - a combination of auctions, used gear sellers (Roberts) using eBay, and "buy it now" listings.

$20 200mm Nikkor f4 Q telephoto in minty condition $15 shipping
$25 135 Nikkor f3.5 Q telephoto, with perfect optics and a little brassing - from Roberts, free shipping
$55 Waist level finder (I'm a medium format guy most of the time) literally NOS condition, from Roberts, free shipping
$21 Three immaculate focusing screens, with boxes. $3.95 shipping
$73 Nikon F body with Photomic finder. $10 shipping. The mirror and the battery contacts were dirty, otherwise perfect.
$25 28mm Nikkor f3.5, H immaculate, shipping $5 (a seller I've bought from before)
$50 50mm Nikkor f1.4, S $8 shipping (from a photo non-profit in my area)
$64 35mm Nikkor f2.8 S with free shipping (it will be in my mailbox by the time I get home) - condition looked GD to VGD

By my reckoning that's exactly $333 plus $42 in shipping charges for a complete outfit of all top of the line stuff. Stuff that originally cost me two or three grand (maybe more = it was a long time ago) to assemble. I'm still sniping for a 105mm f 2.5. There are plenty around fifty bucks, but I want an all metal vintage one to match the others, and they're a little rarer. Someday I might think about a PC lens, but there's really not a lot else in this system that gives me a GAS attack.

There are so many similar items around on the big used gear sellers and eBay, that I'd feel guilty if I didn't pick it all up, and with backups for many items. I had put together a Pentax Spotmatic outfit last year at an even lower total acquisition cost. I feel comfortable that most of my kit will last me the rest of my lifetime, but I wonder whether the next generation will find the same abundance?

Andy

Pioneer · May 14, 2020

As Andy points out it is relatively easy to piece together some nice camera systems for very little money today. Unfortunately these systems are now very old and even the vaunted Nikon F and Pentax Spotmatic are failing more and more often. I have recently had two Spotmatics, a Nikon F and a Leica M3 fail. They can usually be repaired but even that is getting harder, and more expensive, to accomplish.

grain elevator · May 14, 2020

Pioneer said:
As Andy points out it is relatively easy to piece together some nice camera systems for very little money today. Unfortunately these systems are now very old and even the vaunted Nikon F and Pentax Spotmatic are failing more and more often. I have recently had two Spotmatics, a Nikon F and a Leica M3 fail. They can usually be repaired but even that is getting harder, and more expensive, to accomplish.

Yes, of course less and less cameras will function without any repairs. But that's a different and much less dramatic issue than what the OP stated.
I think we may just be leaving a golden age of cheap, working used cameras. It's a little painful to see that go, but compared to what people invested in these film cameras when they bought them new, the expense of having them repaired is usually relatively minor. We still have access to these cameras for much less money (after inflation) then when they were still made.

perkeleellinen · May 14, 2020

Lots of cheap cameras around, not so many high-end cameras, hence the high price. If demand stays high there will be someone ready to exploit the market by starting a repair business that's sells on fixed cameras.

bunip · May 14, 2020

I'm sure if tomorrow every hasselblad and rolleiflex on the earth should stop working, in 2-3 years we'd see a new hassy- or rolley-like model from startups or industry groups

logan2z · May 14, 2020

BrianShaw said:
I don’t believe I’ve met anyone in a very long time that has even a remote interest in buying a new, not previously owned, film camera. I think I’m the last person on the face of this Earth who did so... about a decade ago.

I think I might hold that distinction. Bought mine three years ago

Alan Gales · May 14, 2020

StepheKoontz said:
I have never bought a new film camera, ever. I've been shooting for 35 years, so I don't think not being able to buy a new camera is going to stop me now lol.

That's smart. Let someone else suffer the depreciation. I've only bought one new film camera and it was a Contax 139. I wore it out so I did get my money's worth out of it.

blockend · May 14, 2020

The problem with Kickstarter film cameras is they have to reinvent the wheel. Yer' typical 35mm camera was the result of years of evolution and scale of production, that allowed a reasonably priced product with a high degree of functionality. Bad cameras and their manufacturers evolved out of existence in favour of good, innovative ones. If there was sufficient demand, Canon or Nikon could set up a 35mm production line in a month making any old favourite you choose. They don't because not enough people require such a camera. If Nikon's F6 is still produced, it's offered at a price that keeps a skill set alive for those prepared to pay for an old-fashioned luxury item. Otherwise, they'd be making the F8/F9 in 2020.

logan2z · May 14, 2020

Alan Gales said:
That's smart. Let someone else suffer the depreciation. I've only bought one new film camera and it was a Contax 139. I wore it out so I did get my money's worth out of it.

My first new film camera was a Leica M-A that I bought about three years ago. Yes, I had to think long and hard about dropping that kind of $$$ on a film camera, but the heart wants...

I have had zero regrets about buying the M-A - it's a beautiful 'thing' to hold and to use. Of course I also enjoy using the used Nikon FM that I picked up for $150 including a lens, but there is something nice about taking a new camera out of the box and knowing you're the first person to have ever shot with it.

roblopes · May 14, 2020

blockend said:
The problem with Kickstarter film cameras is they have to reinvent the wheel. Yer' typical 35mm camera was the result of years of evolution and scale of production, that allowed a reasonably priced product with a high degree of functionality. Bad cameras and their manufacturers evolved out of existence in favour of good, innovative ones. If there was sufficient demand, Canon or Nikon could set up a 35mm production line in a month making any old favourite you choose. They don't because not enough people require such a camera. If Nikon's F6 is still produced, it's offered at a price that keeps a skill set alive for those prepared to pay for an old-fashioned luxury item. Otherwise, they'd be making the F8/F9 in 2020.

A camera only needs necessary knobs and dials to set the aperture and shutter speed. Everything else just needs to move as smooth and accurate as possible. No need for all these bells and whistles..

All pre 1980 film camera had only one major issue, the position of the shutter speed dial. If they had placed that on a vertical surface, that would have been perfect. (thumb wheel)

138S · May 14, 2020

bunip said:
I'm sure if tomorrow every hasselblad and rolleiflex on the earth should stop working, in 2-3 years we'd see a new hassy- or rolley-like model from startups or industry groups

Well, today Hasselblad is owned by a chinese drone manufacturer, DJI, so the the 500 EL/M would have 4 propellers connected to the battery.

Deleted member 88956 · May 14, 2020

Horatio said:
A thought-provoking op ed.

Anyone agree?

There are more cameras on this earth to last another few centuries than demand would ever need. We are lucky in a sense that before bean counters took over design and production, cameras were built to last.

Video may be provoking, just no thought is being provoked.

AndyH · May 14, 2020

Pioneer said:
As Andy points out it is relatively easy to piece together some nice camera systems for very little money today. Unfortunately these systems are now very old and even the vaunted Nikon F and Pentax Spotmatic are failing more and more often. I have recently had two Spotmatics, a Nikon F and a Leica M3 fail. They can usually be repaired but even that is getting harder, and more expensive, to accomplish.

Well, they saved the best for last. The 35 lens from Roberts was impossible to tell from new except for a little dust. Here’s the family (sorry for the cell phone pic).

You are Riggs our repairs being the major obstacle to continued use. I have a little bit of skill in that area and a fair supply of parts cameras. My plan is to duplicate each item with a “parts only” version and hope for the best. (This would be very tough to find in medium format, but not in Nikon F)

Anyway, here’s the outfit. I had the bag, filters, Vivitar 283 flash, and Luna Pro just hanging around, orphans.

Deleted member 88956 · May 14, 2020

awty said:
The reason why there isnt many new cameras being made is cause there are about a billion old film cameras out there. You can still buy a good working film camera for under $100, or ten of them if your not too fussy, so there is only a little market in new cameras.......at the moment. The market could shift from digital cameras to film cameras as people prefer to take digital photos with their phones, so camera companies need to diversify and create new markets like Fuji has.

This may actually prove true ... one day.

Deleted member 88956 · May 14, 2020

Ko.Fe. said:
Right now here is more total functioning film cameras than users. Huge disbalance. And film will crap out with lack of users. Not due to lack of working cameras.

+1

roblopes · May 14, 2020

AndyH said:
View attachment 246247

Well, they saved the best for last. The 35 lens from Roberts was impossible to tell from new except for a little dust. Here’s the family (sorry for the cell phone pic).

You are Riggs our repairs being the major obstacle to continued use. I have a little bit of skill in that area and a fair supply of parts cameras. My plan is to duplicate each item with a “parts only” version and hope for the best. (This would be very tough to find in medium format, but not in Nikon F)

Anyway, here’s the outfit. I had the bag, filters, Vivitar 283 flash, and Luna Pro just hanging around, orphans.

I did the very same, but with the Canon F-1 Original and just about all the FD primes. Still trying to get a clean 85mm f/1.8, but I just don't think I need to, but the G.A.S reflect keeps the impulse going. I've managed to keep away from building out the F2 kit as I previously planned. Nikkor glass is cost too much more than FD glass.

Horatio · May 14, 2020

I'll have to say looking at eBay there is no apparent shortage of decent, affordable 35mm film cameras. MF seems altogether different. I won an auction for a Bronco SQ outfit in February at a really low price, under $200 for the body, two lenses, three viewfinders and a winder! Everything I see now is priced anywhere from $400 and up, just for body, one lens, one finder and one back. Even the EXC++++.

There have to be millions of bodies floating around out there, if not billions. Has there ever been a compilation of worldwide camera production numbers?

Sirius Glass · May 14, 2020

bunip said:
I'm sure if tomorrow every hasselblad and rolleiflex on the earth should stop working, in 2-3 years we'd see a new hassy- or rolley-like model from startups or industry groups

Please send whatever drugs you are taking or smoking. I need them.

blockend · May 14, 2020

roblopes said:
A camera only needs necessary knobs and dials to set the aperture and shutter speed. Everything else just needs to move as smooth and accurate as possible. No need for all these bells and whistles..

Any camera with pretentions to accuracy has to have a reliable shutter and transport mechanism. A shutter capable of tens or hundreds of thousands of exposures, is not something that can be knocked out on a 3-D printer. Electronic cameras are no more complex to produce than fully mechanical ones, sometimes less so given the machining tolerances required. I still find it amazing (if charming) that enthusiastic start-ups believe they can produce something that required huge capital, expertise and industrial plant to supply. Or that a market for it exists.

Creating a new box camera is one thing, putting out a "real" camera while avoiding a warranty avalanche is another entirely.

Sirius Glass · May 14, 2020

blockend said:
The problem with Kickstarter film cameras is they have to reinvent the wheel. Yer' typical 35mm camera was the result of years of evolution and scale of production, that allowed a reasonably priced product with a high degree of functionality. Bad cameras and their manufacturers evolved out of existence in favour of good, innovative ones. If there was sufficient demand, Canon or Nikon could set up a 35mm production line in a month making any old favourite you choose. They don't because not enough people require such a camera. If Nikon's F6 is still produced, it's offered at a price that keeps a skill set alive for those prepared to pay for an old-fashioned luxury item. Otherwise, they'd be making the F8/F9 in 2020.

Furthermore the kickstarter could not copy any design details without patient violations.

roblopes · May 14, 2020

Sirius Glass said:
Furthermore the kickstarter could not copy any design details without patient violations.

I can't figure out for the life of me why FujiFilm or Kodak doesn't produce any new film cameras.

I suppose if I produced gasoline and the auto industry stopped making gasoline engines, I'd consider making my own vehicles.

To be fair, the film camera market crashed and there's definitely a resurgence going on for the past few years. Maybe Fuji will throw us a bone and produce a new medium format camera our way. Doesn't have to have all the bells and whistles, just some knobs and an accurate shutter.... Not asking for much.

At least Ilford tossed out a reusable film camera...

Dual Film slots would get people's attention, just sayn' (sarcasm people)

NortheastPhotographic · May 14, 2020

Ko.Fe. said:
Right now here is more total functioning film cameras than users. Huge disbalance. And film will crap out with lack of users. Not due to lack of working cameras.

Not any time soon. I don't think I believed the hype so much until recently but the interest in film is quite strong and still growing. I've seen significant growth year after year to the point where I plan a major expansion in the next 1-2 years (depending on Covid). I'll be adding a high end Colenta processor, brand new. Likely more scanners too if I can find a Durst Sigma Plus (get at me people) or Noritsu HS-1800. Definitely a slew of Fuji SP-500s. The volume is there and then some. Anecdotally (and not accounting for Covid) if you go to any generally busy place where a tourist might be, look at the cameras people are wearing. Lots of film. Now I'm not saying that we're going to go back to a time when all catalogs and magazines will be shoot on hundreds of sheets of E100, but enthusiasts and artists are choosing film! And why not? Shooting digital has some advantages but the post work is a total drag.

The big camera companies are going to have to scale down big time. As I said before, I would not be surprised to see the FM3a brought back. Nikon would sell every single unit they made. Hasselblad still makes a 'film' camera, and I they've seen increased demand for backs. It was dumb of Fuji/Cosina to step away from film completely. Cosina at the very least could have either kept making or improved on the Bessas. I get why the Zeiss Ikon isn't around anymore, range finder people see a Leica as the ultimate choice, but there is still a place for an entry level camera.

The amount of R&D I've encountered from folks dedicated to analog photography over the years I've run NP has been shocking.

P.S. Speaking of things that were supposed to be supplanted by digital, over the past few months I've bought a brand new turntable, 2 or 3 new and a few used vinyl LPs, and a 2nd hand but new production vacuum tube amp.

Lack of affordable new cameras = death knell for film photography?

Deleted member 88956

Deleted member 88956

Deleted member 88956

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency