Lack of affordable new cameras = death knell for film photography?

CMoore · May 14, 2020

At some point, yes, it will be a problem.
I will not predict when, but yes, eventually, good condition, Working/Fixable cameras...especially 35m... will be a real problem.
Will that be several years or several decades from now.?
I have no idea.
Nobody has a crystal ball.
Film might become more problematic than cameras....time will tell.

darkosaric · May 14, 2020

I am buying from time to time great working cheap cameras, for like 1-5€, then selling them or giving them away. So many great and good working cameras around. Couple of days ago I sold 4 P&S cameras for some small money, the guy who purchased it wrote me that he likes testing different cameras for fun - just like me. I put 5 more for free in the package - just that he has more fun . Don't like P&S? No problem - there are so many M42 SLR's and fix lens rangefinder for next to nothing. You like Nikon? F55, F60, F65 you can buy for 1-5€. The list goes on without an end. It is great .

blockend · May 14, 2020

Horatio said:
I lucked out with my last 35mm acquisition, a Nikkormat FTn, for $15. The meter is flaky, but everything else rocks. I may collect several more of these tanks to build a "lifetime" supply.

That was my approach, ten years ago. I bought several Nikkormats because even if some failed, there would be sufficient to last my lifetime. People making a plea for new film cameras need to look at what a new Nikon rangefinder cost in the early 2000s, or a Leica MP today. Even a newly produced Pentax K1000 would likely cost £1000 - 1500 as mechanical construction in an electronic age is expensive. Until the advantages of a new film camera outweigh those of a used one in cost and reliability, the mass market is not ready for anything fancier than a Cosina or Vivitar branded new SLR.

Chan Tran · May 14, 2020

Eventually yes but I think they would stop making film way before that. Perhaps not stop making film completely but in so small quantity that film becomes too expensive that a $5000 camera in today's money is worth it if you are going to shoot film then.

Jim70 · May 14, 2020

Mirrorless cameras will replace DSLRs like DSLRs replaced film cameras like 35mm replaced large format cameras like large format cameras replaced oil paintings. The list on "invented" stories will go on and on...…….

138S · May 14, 2020

If one day there is a need, industry may easily manufacture film cameras again, at least in it's basic functionality it's easy to implement.

From a DSLR design t would only require to strip the sensor and adding a film transport, taht can be totally manual, designing/producing a film camera from a DSLR base would be quite easy, only one thing lack: demand.

I got my F5 for $250... new designs cannot stand that competition.

Chan Tran · May 14, 2020

138S said:
If one day there is a need, industry may easily manufacture film cameras again, at least in it's basic functionality it's easy to implement.

From a DSLR design t would only require to strip the sensor and adding a film transport, taht can be totally manual, designing/producing a film camera from a DSLR base would be quite easy, only one thing lack: demand.

I got my F5 for $250... new designs cannot stand that competition.

That is why I wouldn't sell my F5. When the day comes and according to the video I should be able to get $500 at least for my F5.

Kino · May 14, 2020

These arguments that film can not go on without a new camera are convenience-based arguments.

As long as there is film, a light tight box and a lens, film photography is possible. It might not be convenient, but it is possible.

Film is dead; long live film...

removed account4 · May 14, 2020

Ko.Fe. said:
Right now here is more total functioning film cameras than users. Huge disbalance. And film will crap out with lack of users. Not due to lack of working cameras.

+1

Kino said:
Film is dead; long live film...

SURENDER DOROTHY !

JWMster · May 14, 2020

LF cameras are still being made new (Chamonix, Intrepid, Chroma, etc.) and there's a Kickstarter (with some issues) out there to make a new SLR and lens. Film photography in one form or another is not as vulnerable as it's often suggested. Time for folks to move on, pick another scab or kick something else. The wounds here have healed up and like just about every other "dated" thing that should go away... just not doing so. I can remember in the 1960's when some suggested marriage was dated and doomed.... only to be followed by a time where event planners turned weddings into the overblown showstopping spend-a-thons they are today. Go figure.

Donald Qualls · May 14, 2020

Another thought that just occurred to me: the definition of "affordable". The few new film cameras around are selling for less, after inflation adjustment, than professional quality new cameras sold for in the 1960s: cheaper than a decent used car. Back in the 1950s, Kodak had models that sold for as much as a new car. I can't afford to spend that kind of money on a camera -- never could, and never will. If I were making my living with a camera, I'd have a hard time justifying the expense and risks of film in a digital market -- but since it's a hobby, I can't justify a camera worth more than my five year old car with 100,000+ miles on the clock.

138S · May 14, 2020

Amazingly, the Nikon F6 is still sold new today. Perhaps the most refined SLR ever.

Lee Rust · May 14, 2020

Chemical photography has become an aesthetic and philosophical pursuit, increasingly divorced from convenience and practicality. Roll-film or instant cameras of any kind need fresh film to be continuously manufactured, so when coating machinery wears out or profitability goes negative, production will end and the cameras become artifacts. Then we'll be back to hand-coated plates inside Kino's "light tight box and a lens". A lot of great photographs have been taken that way.

Pioneer · May 14, 2020

Lets see, new cameras purchased in the past 10 years.

Ilford Obscura 4x5
Holga
Zeiss Ikon
Fuji GF670
Wanderlust Travelwide
Intrepid 4x5
Lomo LCA-120
Leica MA

New cameras have been available over the past few years and and many are still available. They range from a very inexpensive Holga to the outrageously expensive Leica (that took some serious savings to afford.) I was even able to pick up a NOS Pentax LX out of Japan a few years back though I suspect those are getting harder to find by now.

Mainecoonmaniac · May 14, 2020

Pioneer said:
Lets see, new cameras purchased in the past 10 years.

Ilford Obscura 4x5

Holga

Zeiss Ikon

Fuji GF670

Wanderlust Travelwide

Intrepid 4x5

Lomo LCA-120

Leica MA

New cameras have been available over the past few years and and many are still available. They range from a very inexpensive Holga to the outrageously expensive Leica (that took some serious savings to afford.) I was even able to pick up a NOS Pentax LX out of Japan a few years back though I suspect those are getting harder to find by now.

I agree. I also get a few cameras in the past 10 years or so. The past decade, people were dumping their film cameras for digital cameras and prices were way cheaper. The resurgence in interest with film cameras prices shot up. I think if people are shooting more film, more will also be interested in repairing old cameras. I think Japan still has a decent supply of old film cameras and the prices are still reasonable.

Bikerider · May 14, 2020

138S said:
Amazingly, the Nikon F6 is still sold new today. Perhaps the most refined SLR ever.

Indeed it is very refined and usable. I bought mine used, about 4 years ago and to be honest it has not had the amount of use that a professional film camera would have received prior to 2000. I have also got a Nikon F100 and as a back up, a F601. Using the 601 is actually delightful being so simple to operate and is almost as good as its later sisters.
The key to producing a new film camera body is quantity production which sadly will not happen. Apart from the Nikon F6, as far as I know the only good film camera in production is a Leica rangefinder The prices of these in the 'M' series are to put it mildly, astronomic. Even the lenses which are outstandingly good are well out of the price range of the everyday man.

I have 3 other film cameras which are all Minolta, the youngest of which is at least 45 years old. They were without doubt built to last, which I think the electronic marvels for the digital world are not, however I appreciate the Minoltas are almost certainly living on borrowed tome.

jtk · May 14, 2020

JWMster said:
LF cameras are still being made new (Chamonix, Intrepid, Chroma, etc.) and there's a Kickstarter (with some issues) out there to make a new SLR and lens. Film photography in one form or another is not as vulnerable as it's often suggested. Time for folks to move on, pick another scab or kick something else. The wounds here have healed up and like just about every other "dated" thing that should go away... just not doing so. I can remember in the 1960's when some suggested marriage was dated and doomed.... only to be followed by a time where event planners turned weddings into the overblown showstopping spend-a-thons they are today. Go figure.

Marriage isn't "dated and doomed." Probably 1/3 of unmarried people do it today, and probably 10% of married people refrain from doing it again. It's like film photography in that respect. A famous American politician bought at least two of his three known marriages and paid a tremendous amount to those two to be able to do the third.

4season · May 14, 2020

Maybe a bigger problem is that people hang onto too much stuff for too long, and by the time they or their heirs sell it, it's dirty, fungused, maybe has been stored for decades in an unheated garage or storage unit.

BradS · May 14, 2020

Ko.Fe. said:
Right now here is more total functioning film cameras than users. Huge disbalance. And film will crap out with lack of users. Not due to lack of working cameras.

I suspect that this is very true. Seems like Spotmatic bodies cannot hardly be sold for the cost of shipping these days.

4season said:
Maybe a bigger problem is that people hang onto too much stuff for too long, and by the time they or their heirs sell it, it's dirty, fungused, maybe has been stored for decades in an unheated garage or storage unit.

I think that this happens and has happened quite a lot more than we'd like to think about...and it's not even dirty, full of fungus and stored in the damp basement junker either, I'll bet a whole bunch of very nice usable and cherished old cameras have been tossed out by survivors for various reasons. But the demand for film cameras also seems to be dwindling. Lots of good used gear cannot be sold for enough to cover postage.

ciniframe · May 14, 2020

I would think that if someone wanted to make a new camera, say a 35mm SLR they should stick to a very basic design. And don’t try to reinvent the wheel. Someone mentioned the Nikkormat, that seems a good choice, take it apart and simplify as much as possible but make every thing rugged and long wearing. Perhaps make the built in meter modular so, if desired, the camera can be sold without it,
No experience but by all reports the East German Praktica, although clunky sounding, were very durable so maybe copy those.

roblopes · May 14, 2020

138S said:
If one day there is a need, industry may easily manufacture film cameras again, at least in it's basic functionality it's easy to implement.

From a DSLR design t would only require to strip the sensor and adding a film transport, taht can be totally manual, designing/producing a film camera from a DSLR base would be quite easy, only one thing lack: demand.

I got my F5 for $250... new designs cannot stand that competition.

For professionals, the F5 has a fatal flaw; The Nikon F5 does not have dual film slots! (sarcasm for those who are serious minded).

SilverShutter · May 14, 2020

Ko.Fe. said:
Right now here is more total functioning film cameras than users. Huge disbalance. And film will crap out with lack of users. Not due to lack of working cameras.

Agreed, this is my perception too. Reminds me of typewriters in some way, its probably 20 or 30 years since most manufacturing stopped, and there is still millions out there. The biggest threat is the possibility of young people not having interest in it, or it falling out of fashion.

138S · May 14, 2020

roblopes said:
For professionals, the F5 has a fatal flaw; The Nikon F5 does not have dual film slots! (sarcasm for those who are serious minded).

yeah

A Pro (digital) photographer tried my F5... he asked: how this thing can focus that fast ????

4season · May 14, 2020

ciniframe said:
I would think that if someone wanted to make a new camera, say a 35mm SLR they should stick to a very basic design. And don’t try to reinvent the wheel.

Zenit 122K and 412 are still new enough that you can find unused ones which need no servicing at all. Plastic 50/2 Zenitar is lightweight and focuses close too. Newer Zenits typically have decently bright finders, and Zenit KM+ ups the ante with full range of shutter speeds, "A" mode and 90%+ finder coverage, though it's a noisy beast.

grain elevator · May 14, 2020

I agree with all those who don't see this issue on the horizon. Film photography would have to grow extremely in popularity for even the grandchildren of the youngest among us to run out of repairable, affordable used cameras in their lifetimes. Most of us here have many more cameras than we really need, so if prices rise, more will circulate. Of course certain special or irrationally popular cameras become unaffordable. But mass produced cameras like the Spotmatics and Nikkormats, which most could make do with, will remain available and probably affordably and fixable for a long time. And at the moment, they're worth nothing compared to when they were new, so some rise in prices wouldn't be unreasonable for what you get, we're just spoilt in this age. The total number of medium format cameras is much lower, but they're not completely drying up any time soon either. LF are easy enough to make as has been mentioned. If prices rise a bit, less cameras will be thrown out rather than fixed, that would be a good thing.
The way I see it, the only thing that might go extinct is color film, but not any time soon.

Lack of affordable new cameras = death knell for film photography?

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