Lack of affordable new cameras = death knell for film photography?

[Horatio]

A thought-provoking op ed.



Anyone agree?

 

[thuggins]

Another 20 minute video with one minute of content.

He focuses a lot on plastic fantastic cameras with electronics that fail and cannot be replaced. No one is surprised there. Meters on mechanical cameras like the OM-1 or Trip 35 will crap out eventually, which leaves us with handheld meters. I've already raised the concern here about shutter curtains degrading with age.

He claims that no one is making leaf shutters, which is probably true. But there are countless leaf shutters out there with an essentially infinite life. The most likely failure mode of a leaf shutter is someone screwing up when trying to repair it. I have some 100 year old cameras that will most likely be working 100 years from now.

His argument is the same one that was being made 10 years ago about film. Impossible managed to create a whole factory to make instant film, and that still astounds me. With stereo lithography there are no tooling costs, which are the biggest impediment to manufacturing any product.

Photography has moved from being a universal pursuit of the great unwashed masses of snapshooters to a hobby that involves some dedication. This is not new. Even post WWII, many publications assumed the photographer would process their own film. Between the existing cameras that will keep going and product that will invariably come down the pike, and given the current state of the world, I firmly believe there will be cameras around long after there are humans left to trigger the shutter.

 

[BrianShaw]

I don’t believe I’ve met anyone in a very long time that has even a remote interest in buying a new, not previously owned, film camera. I think I’m the last person on the face of this Earth who did so... about a decade ago.

 

[Horatio]

Another 20 minute video with one minute of content.

He focuses a lot on plastic fantastic cameras with electronics that fail and cannot be replaced. No one is surprised there. Meters on mechanical cameras like the OM-1 or Trip 35 will crap out eventually, which leaves us with handheld meters. I've already raised the concern here about shutter curtains degrading with age.

Meters aren’t the only isue. There are a multitude of mostly metal Olympus OM-2s, etc. which are unrepairable due to shutter failure, so it’s not just the plastic AF SLRs headed to the rubbish heap. I’d be more hopeful if there were an army of capable repairmen available.

 

[John Bragg]

Quality vintage cameras can be kept running, given that someone is prepared and able to service them. I use Olympus OM1n X2, Leica M6 and Nikon FM2n and a few auto focus Nikons, including F100, F5 and F90x. None show signs of quitting. I also dabble with plastic fantastic 80s point and shoot cameras and these I see as disposable, should one fail. I bought a handfull of Mju and Canon examples with quality fast prime lenses during the bottoming out of analog prices and they make great edc models. I paid on average £3 and less than that in some cases. The batteries cost more than that ! And yes, demand has now driven prices up, but I have enough to be getting on with and I add the odd one as I see a bargain arise. Always good to have spares. I prefer the Mju I to Mju ii and one of my all time favorites is the Canon Sureshot supreme. The glass on that one is stellar. So all in all I'm not worried.

 

[BradS]

For small format, sure. Eventually the absence of new cameras or even decently working used cameras will be but one nail in the coffin. That day sees a long ways off though. In large format however, many new camera makers have entered the market in the past decade or two. The future is bright.

 

[Paul Howell]

35 mm has been the entry into photography for the past 50, 40 years, each year the stock of used cameras is reduced. One of our local high schools closed it's analog photography class and darkroom as parents were complaining about the lack of new affordable 35mm cameras,. Not knowing what to buy they would the camera that lasted a few rolls, wound in a bidding war over a few local mechanical cameras like the K 1000.

 

[Sirius Glass]

The just laidoff journalist quotes James Madison. James Madison was a good president, but was never known to be much of a photographer. Over ten years old "news" story that long ago ran around with the "film is dead" craze. There is no story here.

 

[Donald Qualls]

An all mechanical camera stands a much better likelihood of upcoming technology coming to the rescue. Software meters (apps for smart phones) will handle metering, and soon it'll be very practical to 3D print metal replacement parts, as long as you can figure out the original dimensions -- and if there are functional cameras still around, there's a likelihood that enthusiasts will create a database of part files from which replacement parts can be made, even for cameras like a pre-War Contax II or Barnack Leica.

As noted above, the life of a leaf shutter is essentially determined by how long it takes for parts to completely wear out, or how long until someone makes a huge mistake in attempting to clean or repair the unit. I've got a couple dial-set Compurs that are approaching a century, and they're as accurate as modern Seiko or Copal shutters made in the 1990s, within their range.

The ability to 3-D print metal parts also means the possibility of creating entirely new cameras on a one-off basis. There are already 3-D printed plastic cameras, ranging from singe shot pinhole types to "Lomography" class, and only the inability to control shutter speed limits their versatility -- and I'm certain there are ways to do that with shutters as simple as a box camera rotary. Molded plastic lenses can be good enough for serious photography -- but no one has bothered as long as there's a market that keeps the optical glass industry running (and that won't vanish soon).

I'm with the school who believe there will be good cameras, for those who want them, for a long time yet. People don't object to paying thousands of dollars for a good violin; rather, those with talent find a way to get the instruments they need. As long as we have cameras people can learn the principles on, there'll be a market for the $1000, $2000, $3000 cameras that can actually enhance the work of a serious artist.

 

[pentaxuser]

There are though some worrying trends, surely. There may be many film cameras out there but there are only very few new ones being made. Those with the ability to repair old cameras is a shrinking population due to ageing leading to retirement and then death. Are their skills being passed on and if so to whom amongst our younger population?

Sure simple plastic cameras are easily made but are these sufficient to retain newcomers once the novelty of the simple plastic camera wears off

Perhaps those who believe that film cameras will survive in sufficient numbers to sustain film production will give us the economics of this belief.

Will film and film cameras survive as long as most of us here? Yes, almost certainly, given our age profile but this "yes" hardly covers anything resembling a secure future for film in my opinion.

I fear we resemble the Bentley Speed Six owners club. We can fondly remember when these cars were relatively common place and we have the desire and money to keep ours going but we are never going to sustain the car industry, as it is now, based on our love of old models and technology. Just ask the current owners of Bentley what they would need in terms of sales and at what price per model to resurrect such beloved vehicles and I fear that like the return of Kodachrome or even HIE only a few and in these cases too few of us would be prepared to pay the price to make it worth the while of those with the knowledge and money to make it happen.

So the stark question is: where are the cameras of the future going to come from to sustain the film industry of the future? I say this as a man who only uses film, has no interest in and knows nothing of digital or even hybrid work flows. I say this to prevent anyone thinking that my post is only an attempt by a convert to the other side and thus starting their "attack on my position" from a false assumption

Concentrate on my unwarranted beliefs above but please destroy them with hard facts. I'd welcome being cheered up by at least causing me to have to think again.

pentaxuser
pentaxuser

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Photographers are a creative lot. There are a lot of home-made film cameras. If you want to shoot film and don't get too wrapped up in the gear, you'll make your own.

 

[AndyH]

Another 20 minute video with one minute of content.

He focuses a lot on plastic fantastic cameras with electronics that fail and cannot be replaced. No one is surprised there. Meters on mechanical cameras like the OM-1 or Trip 35 will crap out eventually, which leaves us with handheld meters. I've already raised the concern here about shutter curtains degrading with age.

He claims that no one is making leaf shutters, which is probably true. But there are countless leaf shutters out there with an essentially infinite life. The most likely failure mode of a leaf shutter is someone screwing up when trying to repair it. I have some 100 year old cameras that will most likely be working 100 years from now.

His argument is the same one that was being made 10 years ago about film. Impossible managed to create a whole factory to make instant film, and that still astounds me. With stereo lithography there are no tooling costs, which are the biggest impediment to manufacturing any product.

Photography has moved from being a universal pursuit of the great unwashed masses of snapshooters to a hobby that involves some dedication. This is not new. Even post WWII, many publications assumed the photographer would process their own film. Between the existing cameras that will keep going and product that will invariably come down the pike, and given the current state of the world, I firmly believe there will be cameras around long after there are humans left to trigger the shutter.

When the supply of "newish" gear declines to the point of silliness and scarcity, the demand may become sufficient for entrepreneurs to produce new models, even if based on old designs. I'm just happy to have enough Pentax Spotmatics, Nikon F's, and Rolleiflex SL35s to last the rest of my lifetime.

Andy

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

If film's resurgence continues I would not be surprised to see some of the bigger players re-introduce cameras. Nikon still makes the F6. Rollei still makes the Hy6 Mod 2. DSLR sales are tanking, mirrorless sales are better but frankly people are back to buying cameras like they did in the 80s. Very few people want a 'real camera'. Photographers and enthusiasts once again rule the marketplace. This is a good thing for us, bad for big companies. Pentax should resume making the LX, nikon should resume making the FM3a. Fuji/Cosina's exit of the market was NUTS.

The Bessa's were under appreciated marvels that are only now getting their due. The R4M/A was a phenomenal wide angle RF. The GF670 is a stunning camera that I kick myself for not buying. It was called 'too expensive' at around $2k new. Now it's selling for near $3k on the regular. Cosina should just start making them again!

 

[Horatio]

When the supply of "newish" gear declines to the point of silliness and scarcity, the demand may become sufficient for entrepreneurs to produce new models, even if based on old designs. I'm just happy to have enough Pentax Spotmatics, Nikon F's, and Rolleiflex SL35s to last the rest of my lifetime.

Andy

I lucked out with my last 35mm acquisition, a Nikkormat FTn, for $15. The meter is flaky, but everything else rocks. I may collect several more of these tanks to build a "lifetime" supply.

 

[removed account4]

photography will just go back to what it was 100 years ago.
it will be as expensive as it was 150 years ago and only the people who can afford it
will continue to do it. that said there are plenty of ways to enlarge a digital file and make a print via contact printing
which may end up being the future of photography ...people who have the means will be completely film to print
people who don't will go a different route and no one will be able to see the difference in the final product.
plenty of box cameras that take roll film on this planet too..

YMMV

 

[wyofilm]

In large format however, many new camera makers have entered the market in the past decade or two. The future is bright.

Is anyone making lenses for these new cameras?

 

[Paul Howell]

Good question, I was under the impression there is still new old stock, but nothing in production.

 

[BradS]

Is anyone making lenses for these new cameras?

I have not looked in a while..a long while but, I think that some Rodenstock LF lenses still available new. Of course Cooke will make a lens for you if you have the money.

Many of the favorite/popular Nikon AIS lenses are still available brand new - see B&H for example. Prices are not really too bad either.

 

[wyofilm]

I have not looked in a while..a long while but, I think that some Rodenstock LF lenses still available new. Of course Cooke will make a lens for you if you have the money.

Many of the favorite/popular Nikon AIS lenses are still available brand new - see B&H for example. Prices are not really too bad either.

Thanks! I was specifically thinking of large format lenses. Nikon still makes some. New lens for Pentax 645z will work with 645nii, I think. Some other examples ... I believe.

 

[MattKing]

It is so much easier now to access used cameras than it was when new cameras were being produced in the millions.
I understand the desire to buy something new. That desire is poorly served at the present time.
When the used camera market is such that new cameras can be sold at a profit, the situation will change.
After all, there are so many lenses out there that you can put on them.

 

[Kodachromeguy]

In my opinion, the big issue in a decade or two will be film manufacture/coating. Chemicals may be deemed too hazardous or equipment in Kodak and Ilford factories, which was first installed in the 1950s (?) or 1960s (?) will need to be replaced. Even if older machinery is maintained, slowly the corporate knowledge of how they work or are repaired will slip away as the old-time technicians retire. But, as someone above mentioned, the Impossible Project did wonders in only a few years, so I may be too pessimistic.

Lenses: Less of a problem because modern lenses that are approximately the same size as older SLR lenses are still in production. Leica, Cosina, and a bunch of new Chinese companies are making brand new Leica M lenses. Until recently, there were even new ltm lenses being made. Large format: Alpa, Linhof, and some other companies still sell them.

Bodies: Leica and Nikon still sell new film cameras. I read that Leica film body sales are increasing every year (albeit from a fairy low production rate). Cosina may be able to start production again because (other than Nikon and Leica) they were the last mainstream company to make 35mm film cameras. I think it would be the ultimate turnaround (revenge?) if the trolls on Dpreview, who liked to chant how Leica was dead and film was dead, now find that it is their digital computerized button-push device manufacturers who quit the business first, while Leica soldiers on.

 

[dynachrome]

I agree that earlier mostly mechanical cameras will be easier to service. A short time ago I had another Nikkormat FT2 overhauled. It works beautifully. I have a Canon F-1N out for an overhaul. I'm pretty sure my Olympus OM2000 cameras will still be working long after my OM2N and OM2S cameras have stopped working. There are many mechanical Nikkormats and Canon FTb/Ns and Minolta SRTs around and we still have repair people who can service them. If a Nikon N90S that I bought for $25 stops working five years from now, I won't be too upset. I have enough b&w film on hand and enough chemistry on hand to last quite a while. If color film becomes unavailable in the future then I will use my film equipment for b&w picture taking. The gentleman in the video, despite his short haircut, looks younger than me. He needn't be so worried.

 

[reddesert]

There is no technological or engineering barrier to making new film cameras. A company that makes DSLRs could make a 35mm SLR film camera by taking the detectors out, adding a film transport, pressure plate, etc, and adapting the electronics. The body, mirror, shutter, etc are all similar. But it requires a fairly large company with engineering knowhow, it's not a viable cottage business or Kickstarter (unlike large format cameras, where there are semi-cottage businesses). What is lacking is demand, and willingness to pay the price that a low-demand product would require.

Film manufacturing requires a substantial physical plant and is more likely to be a technological bottleneck before the supply of Nikkormats dries up. If it comes to that, well, people have demonstrated that wet plate and dry plate are still viable (I'm sure wet plate is more popular, or at least more visible, than it was 20-30 years ago).

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Right now here is more total functioning film cameras than users. Huge disbalance. And film will crap out with lack of users. Not due to lack of working cameras.

 

[awty]

The reason why there isnt many new cameras being made is cause there are about a billion old film cameras out there. You can still buy a good working film camera for under $100, or ten of them if your not too fussy, so there is only a little market in new cameras.......at the moment. The market could shift from digital cameras to film cameras as people prefer to take digital photos with their phones, so camera companies need to diversify and create new markets like Fuji has.