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A digitally rendered image is a fake photograph ....
I find it interesting how the definition of 'genuine' tends to exactly coincide with the type of art being made by the person doing the defining. Weston, Adams, Stieglitz and Strand spring to mind as prime practitioners of this. I can't think of a single instance in the art world where somebody defined so-called proper art as something other than what they were already doing themselves. Same thing applies to most human endeavors, I suppose. It is really pretty funny when you take a couple of steps back and look at it.
I think you are going about this backward. "Genuine" photograph has an air of snottiness about it and is ultimately as vague as the "photograph" that I see most digital imagers label their art with. Far better to push for an increased level of detail and truthfulness in the labeling of those, and corresponding use "silver-gelatin" (or whatever) for your own (as much as I hate that term).
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OK I guess I just repeated what J said more eloquently, but it bears repeating.When I go to a gallery and see "photograph", I call and bitch at the director to do my part.
But that's not what the Genuine Label is about.
It - as was said - doesn't care about the medium. Only about doing things that would 'falsify' the rendering of the scene.
And even though i think it 'bonkers', it's still much better than the "a digital photo isn't a photo, even though photons, distributed by lenses, were used to create it" silliness.
maybe instead of genuine or fake you should label it something else like straight unmanipulated photographic image ...
Hi, I think I might have chosen the wrong word here: "rendered" is used over here for images which come completely out of a computer, done with 3DSmax, Maya or similar software - those images are not drawn by light (the only thing they have in common with photographs and all other images one can imagine is that they REFLECT light). I am not speaking about digital photography!fake photos ??
numeric images ARE drawn with light ...
and if put onto paper via an enlarger, they are printed onto paper with light too.
maybe instead of genuine or fake you should
label it something else like straight unmanipulated photographic image
made from a historic process ... or straight, unmaipulated non digital / analog image ... ( no digital involved )
you folks sound too much like the gallery owners who i audienced with
who insisted my silver-photographs were not photographs because
they did not fit their criteria ...
You have totally confused me here. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the technical bits of photography too but if you aren't creating art or telling a story in the end, what's the point?
Following this thought a bit further;
If your label isn't for honest storytelling (news, history, portraits, snaps of family)...
If your label isn't for honest art (something pretty for the wall)...
If your label isn't for marketing (you aren't trying to make a buck)...
And if your label isn't for news...
What's the point in your label?
(...)
I'll repeat myself: you cannot claim not to want to attach labels while proposing a label and setting out the ground rules for when it may and may not be attached.
Your label is intended and used to set a group of photographs ("genuine" ones) apart from another group of things that do not hold up to whatever you say distinguishes between the two groups.
Yet you believe that you are not "judging whether a photograph is genuine or not"...? The entire Genuine Photograph Manifesto is one big judgment.
(...)
Q.G., what I mean is: I do not want to attach this label to other photographer´s work. I do use it for mine. And whoever wants to use it, may do it. But since we invented the label, we are defining the rules.
And finally, I am making a last try: "Genuine Photograph" -as used in the context of our website, is to be understood as fix term like a brand name, not as a description. We are giving a definition for this term. This is why we write it with capitals.
Interestingly, I don't hold that view. I believe that a photograph in the strictest sense is a physical artifact created by light on a light sensitive surface.
I don't mean this as a point of argument, just a question of interest: what do you think about prints made on photographic paper, which has been exposed to light and developed in photo chemicals, from a file made with a digital camera? These are the LightJet and Lambda machines. I see them no differently as photograms, personally.
The copy is genuine - the original art work is ?
(uh huh, Richard Prince with a pedants twist)
I see where you are going with this and do not necessarily disagree, but it does become easy to split hairs. For example, a dye transfer photograph would not be a photograph, but rather a print as in printmaking since the dyes are transferred from one surface to a new substrate. The final substrate is not exposed to light to form an image. Neither are Polaroid Transfers, etc., if you want to get real technical.
I see where you are going with this and do not necessarily disagree, but it does become easy to split hairs. For example, a dye transfer photograph would not be a photograph, but rather a print as in printmaking since the dyes are transferred from one surface to a new substrate. The final substrate is not exposed to light to form an image. Neither are Polaroid Transfers, etc., if you want to get real technical.
That's why I liked the FoundView concept which is prety much what the Genuine Photo concept is, but I think the name worked better. FoundView implied that the image presented represented the subject of the image without certain modifications. The Genuine Photo name implies a whole lot more, and I don't think it needs to. Perhaps a better name could be used to represent the concept.
Indeed.
The important bit, in my opinion, is that whatever gets transferred or put on something in whatever way started life in the process of photons hitting things, pushing electrons about (or whatever they do).
If you want to be strict, you may demand that these photons pass through
specially shaped glass before hitting a lightsensitive thingy. But why be strict?
No. You do.You have the cart in front of the horse. [...]
No. You do.
Photography is a way of recording the image a lens projects (i'll be 'strict' now, though you mention samples of 'loose' photographs. But it's not about that now, and either is fine).
There are a few different ways of doing so. And what you do with it in the end maybe important for what you call the print or projection.
But it all starts the same. With the thing Fox Talbot, Niepce and their like tried and first succeeded to do. Make a permanent record of the image a lens projects.
I doubt Fox Talbot or Niepce would care about what for you appears to be the most important bit. I don't either.
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