L->R image reversal in viewfinder drives me crazy

PeterB · Aug 10, 2015

Using a TLR without a prism in the viewfinder results in a laterally (L->R) reversed image. It drives me nuts. When using the camera handheld, It takes me like 5-10 seconds to reposition the field of view when I need to. I've "only" shot about 30 rolls of film with a TLR, how many more before I can nudge the view instinctively?

What percentage of users actually get used to it and have this feedback loop controlled to an instinctive response time of less than 1 second?

I saw a video about The Backwards Brain Bicycle - (Smarter Every Day) that took an adult (named Destin) 8 months to learn to ride, while his son (with a more plastic brain) took 2 weeks.

https://youtu.be/MFzDaBzBlL0

This utter frustration I see when NOBODY can ride the bike for more than 1 metre reminds me exactly how I feel when positioning my Mamiya C330f when composing a handheld shot.

Regards
Peter

Richard Man · Aug 10, 2015

I use a 4x5 L<->R, Up<->Down, a Hasselblad L<->R, and a Leica routinely. It just takes a couple seconds to switch.

Ian Grant · Aug 10, 2015

You get used to it very quickly and surprisingly it makes you more aware how you're framing an image.

Ian

PeterB · Aug 10, 2015

30 rolls taken and still no joy, that ain't "very quickly" so I conclude that I must have a defective brain ! The biggest difficulty is when I have to tilt the camera (CW or CCW) rather than pan it. Panning L and R is usually fine, but tilting it CW or CCW just messes with my head big time. I feel like I imagine somebody with Parkinson's Disease feels when their gait is frozen.(No intended disrespect to any PD sufferers, I'm just grappling for an analogy).

Regards
Peter

film_man · Aug 10, 2015

It took a few rolls to figure it the left-right but I'm ok with it now The tilting gets me a few times though...

Ian Grant · Aug 10, 2015

I remember the first TLR I used back around 1969 when I swapped cameras for a long weekend with a school friend, I used his Yashicamat 124g and he used my Zenit E and lenses. I only shot one film but found it instinctive, so when I got TLRs of my own 6 years later I never noticed any difficulty.

When I've not used a TLR or any camera with just a focus screen (no prism) I don't try to immediately frame an image, I'll tilt up and point down, turn it left and right while viewing the screen to re-familiarise myself with the nuances of working laterally. Maybe a couple of minutes doing this helps, I know that's what I did after a 30 year spell after my Mamiya C33 & C3 were stolen when I bought a Yashicamat 124 on this forum about 8 years ago..

Ian

fotch · Aug 10, 2015

Hardly noticed, not a problem for me.

winger · Aug 10, 2015

You're not alone. I've figured my problem with my Hasselblad is because I don't use it consistently, but I have the same problems as you. When there's tilt that I'm trying to fix, it takes me forever. It's better on a tripod. I'd guess it's something in my brain (would eye issues cause any of it? I have a lazy eye and an astigmatism), but I have no problem at all with the upside down image on a LF ground glass.

480sparky · Aug 10, 2015

I remember when you had to push a button on the floorboard of your car with your left foot to turn your headlights' bright beams on and off. Then suddenly, it was a function of the turn signal lever. That took me all of 5 seconds to master.

I think you're just letting it 'get to you'. Perhaps you need to just pick the camera up and practice composing sans film.

PeterB · Aug 10, 2015

winger said:
You're not alone. I've figured my problem with my Hasselblad is because I don't use it consistently, but I have the same problems as you. When there's tilt that I'm trying to fix, it takes me forever. It's better on a tripod. I'd guess it's something in my brain (would eye issues cause any of it? I have a lazy eye and an astigmatism), but I have no problem at all with the upside down image on a LF ground glass.

Yay !! one person out of six whose brain is wired like mine At least I'm not alone, I was beginning to feel rather inadequate. I agree if I used the camera more often it would be less of an issue. I only use it about every 1-3 months. I even found some Latin words for my condition of minimal brain plasticity! I started off with dysopia but then realised that "lateralis inverto impugnetur" is much more precise, meaning "left<->right inversion challenged " !!

If anybody has 7 mins to spare, have a watch of the video I initially posted, it is so bizzare how NOBODY (without 2 weeks to 8 months of practise) can ride this bike which behaves like this: when you turn the handlebars CW (to the right), the front wheel turns CCW (to the left) and vica versa. It goes to show how hard wired some functions are in our mind.

Sewin · Aug 10, 2015

You aren't alone.

The tilt gets to me too :crazy:

Ghostman · Aug 10, 2015

I have no problem with this and actually like it. The fact that what I see on the viewfinder is flipped gives me a level of abstraction from what I see before me. So I can quickly spot little things that stand out were they would appear normal in my first-hand view. Don't think, do.

Jeff Bradford · Aug 10, 2015

It has driven me mad at times. I have even resorted to tying a string between the camera and the subject as well as using a laser pointer taped to the camera. Thanks for reminding me I need to take the Mamiyas out for a tour.

trondsi · Aug 10, 2015

It takes a little longer than my SLR camera, but it sometimes is beneficial to the final image, since I can see the general composition both normally (with my own eyes) and flipped. However, ground glass that shows the image upside down is still a bit iffy for me.

bdial · Aug 10, 2015

Pre-focus and use the sports finder to compose.
(unfortunately not an option for a Hasselblad, but is pretty much a universal feature of TLR's).

Francesco_from_Rome · Aug 10, 2015

PeterB said:
Using a TLR without a prism in the viewfinder results in a laterally (L->R) reversed image. It drives me nuts. When using the camera handheld, It takes me like 5-10 seconds to reposition the field of view when I need to. I've "only" shot about 30 rolls of film with a TLR, how many more before I can nudge the view instinctively?

What percentage of users actually get used to it and have this feedback loop controlled to an instinctive response time of less than 1 second?

I saw a video about The Backwards Brain Bicycle - (Smarter Every Day) that took an adult (named Destin) 8 months to learn to ride, while his son (with a more plastic brain) took 2 weeks.

https://youtu.be/MFzDaBzBlL0

This utter frustration I see when NOBODY can ride the bike for more than 1 metre reminds me exactly how I feel when positioning my Mamiya C330f when composing a handheld shot.

Regards
Peter

I don't have any good advice on the viewfinder: but the video about the backwards brain bicycle was great! Thanks for sharing.

Francesco

nwilkins · Aug 10, 2015

just walk around a bunch looking through the viewfinder (no need to shoot photos) and you'll get it in no time.

Spicy · Aug 10, 2015

30 rolls with no joy seems a bit long.

I originally had quite an issue with it, but after doing what ^ had said (try walking around for a while without film and just pretending to shoot), things improved significantly.

also, with WLFs, I've often found it more beneficial to try thinking of it more as dragging the subject into your frame, rather than pointing the camera at it.

hope that's helpful.

mweintraub · Aug 10, 2015

I'm used to it. Let me put it this way. I was playing with my friend's Bronica GS-1 with the rotating prism finder and I got really confused looking down into the viewfinder and everything was correct orientation.

gzhuang · Aug 10, 2015

Focus normally and frame the shot with an external viewfinder mounted on the hotshoe. Extremely useful for vertical shots.

Pioneer · Aug 10, 2015

Thirty rolls ain't nothing. I love my TLRs for their photos but I don't love working with the viewfinder. I have well over 100 rolls through my Rolleis this year, not counting my Ikoflexes, and I still screw it up.

I have actually reached a stage of acceptance. I already know that my brain does not work well upside down and sideways so I just accept it and move ahead.

I do agree that I focus harder on my compositions because of this but I am not sure that they are any better for it.

For me it is a bit like shooting large format. I don't even set up to shoot until I see something while walking about that appears to fit together. Then I will spend some time looking at it through the ground glass, changing positions to see what happens.

As for walking about looking through the ground glass, that is a no starter. I would be tripping on my nose in no time.

My advices is, if you like the photos you get from your Mamiya, put up with it and keep shooting. If you don't like the photos then sell it and move on. I like my Pentacon Six with an eye level viewfinder and a lot of the lenses available in the P6 mount are terrific.

cliveh · Aug 10, 2015

This should not be a problem, but an advantage. Looking at an image transposed right/left or left/right, or even upside down helps gain a sense of composition by virtue that you are viewing in an abstract way and not over influenced by the subject/content, which may not provide a good composition.

Sirius Glass · Aug 10, 2015

Ian Grant said:
You get used to it very quickly and surprisingly it makes you more aware how you're framing an image.

Ian

The OP is in good company.

I have NEVER gotten used to it. I convinced my father to get a PorroPrism for his Mamiya C2, C3, and C330 to get rid of the left-right reversal. He quickly grew to love it after many years of using various other TLRs including Rolleis. I inherited the C330 and continued to use the PorroPrism. I traded the C330 for the Hasselblad and bought a 45 degree PME so that I could have a light meter and not have the left-right reversal.

Maris · Aug 10, 2015

It's decades since I even noticed that the image on the ground glass of my view cameras is upside down but the TLR confuses me every time. Maybe my neuro-plasticity is limited to one process, the inversion flip, and the right-to-left TLR image is a step too far. Maybe one brain, or what's left of it, can accommodate only one image trick at a time. Would a split personality help?

Sirius Glass · Aug 10, 2015

I have no problem with inverted images on the 4"x5" cameras but the left-right reversal is the pits.

L->R image reversal in viewfinder drives me crazy

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