Kueb/Kiev 30/30M/303 format question

[xkaes]

I'm hoping that a Kiev 16mm user knows the answer to this question without my digging through my negatives.

The Kiev Vega 16mm camera models, like the Minolta 16, created 10x14mm images in the middle of 16mm film -- regardless of the perforations (Double, Single, or unperforated).

The later 30, 30M and 303 cameras switched to a 13x17mm format -- the same size as the 110 cameras -- but larger than the Minolta SUPER 16mm (12x17mm) that was used in the Minolta MG-s & QT cameras.

The Minolta SUPER 16mm format used single perforated (or unperforated) film, and was off-set slightly (similar to the 110 format) to keep the perforations out of the image.

Are the Kiev 13x17mm images off-set -- similar to the Minolta Super 16 and 110 format -- or are the simply right in the middle of the 16mm film with 1.5mm of film edge on each side.

I'm assuming it's the latter. If no one knows, I'll go through my negatives.

http://www.subclub.org/shop/kiev.htm

 

[Donald Qualls]

They are offset with about the same border on the unperfed film side (if you loaded the cassette correctly) as the Minolta 12x18, but 1 mm less border on the other edge. They will generally just graze the sprocket holes on single perf film.

 

[xkaes]

I'm not much of a 110 user, but I pulled out some 110 (13x18mm), Minolta Super 16 (12x17mm), and Kiev 30/30M/303 (13x18mm) negatives to make a comparison. Here's what I found.

110 -- Despite the images being exposed in-between the pre-exposed portions of the film (which also includes the 110 perforations), the images are off-set 1mm. I see no reason why they are, but there probably is a reason. The edge on the side with the 110 perforations is 2mm wide, while the opposite edge is 1mm wide.

Minolta Super 16 -- The Minolta cassettes should be loaded with single perforated film (un-perforated works fine, too), but the perforated side should be loaded on the top of the cassette -- where the cassette "bridge" is located. Since the format is 1mm smaller, the image can be offset an additional millimeter to avoid the perforations. The edge on the top of the image is 3mm, while the opposite edge is 1mm wide. Loading single-perf film incorrectly, or using double-perforated film will produce sprocket holes in the image.

Kiev 30/30M/303 -- The images from these cameras are not off-set. There is 1.5mm edging on each side on the 13x18mm image. Loading single-perf or double-perforated film will produce sprocket holes in the image.

This is important in terms of negative carriers for enlargers or scanners. 110 carriers are the most common, and pretty easy to find, but they are too large for the Minolta Super 16 images, and off-set a little too much for the Kiev images.

I'm helping out BitByBitPhoto in making 3D carriers to address this issue.

 

[psfred]

I believe the offset in 110 is to prevent the pressure marks from the indexing pin from showing up in prints -- that area is pre-flashed in factory loaded cassettes.

I find that most 110 cameras produce images larger than the flashed "window" on re-loaded film.

Kiev 30/303 images are centered.