Kreonite C-41 Dip and Dunk Processor

yelmarb

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I've been offered a Kreonite C-41 dip and dunk machine for free, which I'm sorely tempted by. I would be able to put around 500 sheets of 4x5 and about 100 rolls of 120 through it in a year but my concern is that the machine would sit switched off for a few weeks at a time, while I'm away shooting.

Has anyone run a C-41 dip and dunk machine? If so, how long can you leave the chemistry in the tanks with the machine switched off? Would floating lids on the tanks help in this instance?
 

Bob Carnie

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Just dump the chemicals , clean the tanks and start up when you have the film to justify . Just make sure the machine runs well, you have ability to get parts and someone in your area knows how to fix.
 

jtk

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Bob's right of course. But yes, floating lids would help. Wouldn't hurt to run/evaluate test strips after being away, just to confirm.
 

Mr Bill

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Has anyone run a C-41 dip and dunk machine? If so, how long can you leave the chemistry in the tanks with the machine switched off? Would floating lids on the tanks help in this instance?

I've overseen what we call "process control" on a number of processing machines, although never specifically a dip n dunk. Yes, floating lids would help. There really is no hard number on how long something will "last;" it's a matter of "degree." Each of the chemical solutions has different characteristics as to how it goes bad.

In the whole scheme of things, the amount of volume you have is not really that much, at least with respect to keeping a C-41 process going. Let me just say that there are two general ways of doing things. One is like Bob suggests, at least for the case of the developer. The other is to attempt to learn at least the basics of "process control" and get some additional equipment. At a bare minimum you would want a color densitometer and a supply of "control strips." Essentially you would periodically process a control strip (they are pre-exposed by the manufacturer). Then you "read" the strip and judge how far it has degraded from ideal. The "corrective action" you take depends on what you "see" in the test strip as well as how knowledgeable you are about such things.

The knowledge of how to deal with the chemical process is much different than what a normal photographer has, and it's a skill that, for your volume, is probably not worth learning, imo. If you want a taste of things, look for the Kodak Z manual on C-41 (Flexicolor). Look at the very last section for examples of how the control charts behave under certain conditions.

It may be worth talking to the person you would get the machine from; perhaps they have the knowledge (and equipment) that you are lacking, and would be willing to act as your "lab person." Don't overlook the issues of "environmental regulation." If you are not currently dealing with this, it's possible that possession of the new machine may get you on someone's bureaucratic radar so make sure that you look into this.
 
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yelmarb

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Thank you for the replies and the tip on the Z manual, that's a wealth of info for C-41 processing there. I've got some homework to do now...
 

Bob Carnie

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Your in London? It occurs to me that in such a large city with high rents, space is at a premium, if you are in a situation to do this then I have no doubt others would come to you to have C41 process dip and dunk to offset your costs, just my opinion of course, I live in Toronto and if Toronto Image Works was not doing such a good job with C41 I would consider a dip and dunk technolab to do both C41 and BW, I would stay clear away form E6 .
 
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yelmarb

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Thanks Bob. How does a Technolab processor do both C41 and BW?
 

Bob Carnie

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From your initial post I am assuming you will start the machine up and run for a period of time then shut it down.
Buy up all the old outdated , C41 and BW film you can to be used as a seasoner for the run, load fresh tank of chemicals, either C41 or BW and run with replenishment and a method of checking the process, dump when you are done... have a drawbridge approach, the drawbridge only lifts when you have enough film to run.
You are living in London? the home of photography process labs, I can guess there are many out of work techs with the right experience , they may be older but freedom 85 is the new 55.


I think the Technolab does all three E6, BW, C41. Jobo Technolab it the correct name I think, Pricy to purchase new but if you are serious about this, I think a new unit with current parts is a good bet, Start up shut down , it is something I have been thinking about for over 5 years, only problem that in my town as I said above there is a good vender already doing it. For that matter a used unit is perfectly ok as long as its been overhauled by a tech , the trick is to purchase used something that is currently being supported, I am not sure Kreonite is around anymore??
dip and dunk avoid's most of the issues with roller transport and they are actually somewhat easy for anyone to operate.. long term process control would be an issue for some but with good practice and enough film to go through to replenish a piece of cake, I would stay away from E6 as that is a major step up in process and control. Once again there are hundreds of people on this forum and others with QC experience that can set you up.(not me)

If you had enough people around you and a good scanner , you could offer quality process and scan service using dip dunk, which IMHO the best way to process colour film. I have tried all methods btw in my career, roller transport (though the easiest is by far the worst , scratches , jams, washing) and this is what is most likely out there for all the members here with exception of the better quality Jobo and Dip Dunk labs.

the more I talk about it the better this idea seems to me, SPOILER ALERT- BIG ISSUE: I have ran thousands of rolls in my past, and I am not sure I am willing to deal with the weekend warriors who screw up their film, send it in to me to process and then blame me for any issue, it happens so much (you can see it here on countless threads) . Life is too short so this aspect must be clearly defined if you want to work with others as these problems can be soul suckers, and actually be more problematic than getting a process up and running (easier part).
If you can clearly define this problematic situation (and it will occur) , and you have a large enough space with ceiling height, exhaust and room circulation and temp control, and it is super , and I mean super clean space then it may be an opportunity worth investigating.

Google Metro Imaging ,You can see that process and scan is anywhere from $12 - $20 per roll, this is quite a nice markup - with the right gear and policy's in place I think its a good choice for the right person{setup}

Google Cres Imaging for used gear.
 
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yelmarb

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Hi Bob, thank you for your thoughts again. I have briefly thought about setting about a little boutique lab but there are enough of those in London already, I live an hour away from the nearest one so I either have to spend time travelling or put my irreplaceable film in the hands of a courier, neither are appealing.

I was looking at a Jobo system but it's about $5k with the big tanks that can process 4x5 evenly. The other option is the Filmomat, but that's $5k and you are limited to 2 rolls of film at a time. And with either of these, you still need to dry the film somewhere.

There are tech's who are still working and can source parts for Krenoite. Of course you would need to get the room set up to accommodate the machine and for the tech to overhaul it and get it up and running but I should hope that that could be done for $5k or less. And then you would have the perfect C-41 film processor at your beck and call!

Of course there is the QC but I did run a Kreonite E6 dip and dunk machine many, many years ago so I'm not a complete novice. However, I would need to study the Z manual of C-41. There is also the running expense of the machine, the chemistry to buy and dispose of etc but you would have to do all of this with the Jobo or Filmomat as well, of course not quite to the same scale of a dip and dunk machine.

If it went according to plan, then I would be saving money and time, and who doesn't want that? But I don't know for sure that this will be the case, I may end up spending a lot more time and money than what I'm doing with lab processing now. Still, a free C-41 dip and dunk machine that would have cost a ton of money back in the day. It is just so tempting..
 

Mr Bill

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Hi again. If you're seriously considering doing this as a business I would emphasize to very seriously look into the environmental regulations. If we were back in the days before this was an issue, I'd say to go for it.

I have no idea what the regulatory situation is like in London; my experience is mostly from the US, with a bit near Toronto. In these places, a proposed lab would normally apply for a sewering permit, which asks for information about the proposed effluent. The forms are tailored to the industry; in photofinishing it would include questions about total volume, BOD and COD, etc., as well as silver, and possibly even iron (iron is the key element in C-41 bleach). If acceptable, a sewering permit would be issued, specifying the exact limits on things, as well as how this will be verified (you may have to take an initial sample to a certified testing lab - who knows?)

Silver is most likely the only thing that would give you problems, and in truth, if the limits are stringent, say 0.2 mg/l silver, you would have almost no chance of meeting this. (I've designed the effluent control systems in a handful of labs, and I'm pretty certain about this.) So your hopes would be that 1) they would see you as a "small-quantity generator," and don't even regulate you, 2) they would include your effluent as part of the combined effluent stream from your entire building, or whatever, or 3) they recognize that your total "contribution" is so small that they are willing to allow a high concentration. Your only other options, as far as I can see, are that you have all the waste, including wash water, hauled by a qualified waste-disposal specialist, or, simply say nothing and hope that no regulatory body notices you. But in the latter case, consider the possibility that someone finds out and wants to "make an example" out of you.

This may be just a bunch of worry over nothing, but again, I would look into these aspects before getting too deep into things. If you're already making a living primarily as a photographer it might make more sense to farm out your processing, I dunno. If you're really concerned about a courier hauling your film, you mighty consider putting it in a locked case; you can get serialized wire seals (like your power company puts on meters), then have freight insurance, maybe through the courier service. (The lab is instructed not to open the case if the seal is broken, or if the seal number doesn't match your paperwork.)

Ps, in effluent regulations it is invariably disallowed to dilute the effluent to meet standards, fyi. (This is commonly suggested by people who have presumably not actually dealt with effluent permits.) If you are wondering what is "dilution" and what is normal "washing," have a look at the Kodak Z manuals to get wash water flow rates for certain "tank configurations." A single wash tank has the highest flow requirement; demands are lower for two counter-current flow wash tanks, etc. So if things are touchy, silver-in-effluent-wise, it's to your benefit to NOT take any steps toward water conservation - one of the unfortunate side effects of concentration-based effluent regs.

Best of luck with whatever you decide to do. I'll be glad to help with any further questions, if I can.
 

REFREMA_252

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Ancient thread I know but did you ever move forward with the Kreonite or was it scrapped? If it's available I'm interested in acquiring it.
 
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