Kozo heavy paper, first impression

TheFlyingCamera · Jul 18, 2007

Well, I just tried making a pt/pd print on the Kozo paper that Bostick & Sullivan sent out in their sampler pack. I'm comparing it to my personal favorite and gold standard, COT 320.

The Kozo is a lighter weight paper than the COT 320. Despite this fact, it has good wet strength - after coating, developing and washing, it did not crease, soften, or dissolve in any way.

When coating, I did my usual 7:7 drop count for a 5x7. The paper absorbed more emulsion than COT 320, but I still had an adequate amount to fully coat a 5x7 with some extruded borders.

It takes a lot more time to dry thoroughly than COT 320. I learned this lesson the hard way. It felt surface dry to my touch, and the emulsion color was what I expected to see on a dry COT 320 print. I sandwiched a negative with it, and popped it in the printing frame. Unfortunately, it was not nearly as dry as it seemed. This resulted in two major complications - ONE, a significant amount of my emulsion adhered itself to my negative, ruining it. TWO, the paper was sufficiently limp that it created a major crease where the seam in the split back on the printing frame runs.

Lessons learned:

A: allow much more drying time than you think you need before printing.
B: once dry, back the paper with something continuous, like a sheet of glass, before closing it in the frame.

blaze-on · Jul 18, 2007

I tried the kozo light (handmade) for a 4x5 and I liked the look...softer...when wet I thought it would dissolve when I touched it but it's stronger than the Weston Diploma.
It's weird when wet too...you see all the fibers and looks almost transparent. Kinda cool for the right image. I'll try the heavy and see what happens..

payral · Jul 19, 2007

And what about the resulting image on Kozo compared to the usual paper ?
Color, contrast, etc.

TheFlyingCamera · Jul 19, 2007

I'll have to reprint it with a new negative- enough of the emulsion adhered to my negative that I can't make a proper judgement. It does appear to give good dmax, with good contrast. I was printing a 5:2 Pd/Pt mix, and the black color was about the same as my COT 320, but of course the highlights and midtones are going to be warmer - the Kozo is a fairly yellow/ecru paper to begin with.

doughowk · Jul 19, 2007

I compared Kozo heavy with COT 320 for Kallitypes; and found the Kozo to also have good detail rendering & stood up well to all the baths for Kallitypes. A definite plus is the Kozo texture - a handmade appearance as opposed to uniformity of COT 320. Will have to place an order.

TheFlyingCamera · Jul 19, 2007

Also, the printing speed was equal to that of my COT 320. I've found with some of the other papers that they print slower than the COT 320.

JLP · Jul 19, 2007

Had a try with the Kozo heavy. It is a nice looking paper and hold up fine but the lack of details in the print when compared to COT320 and the Arches (Weston) don't appeal to me.
I imagine there could be some subjects that would suit this paper.
Contrast is with my limited experience a bit low also compared to the two papers above. It coats well.

jan

Dug · Jul 19, 2007

I'll have to try the Kozo Heavy. Am I just a klutz or do others find the Weston Diploma too fragile? It seems to fall apart just from looking at it funny. One of the Kallitypes I made with Diploma last night came out of the wash with what looked like a blister of wash water trapped in the paper. Does anyone have some tips on how to work with this stuff? I have been using COT 320 and a lot of Rising Stonehenge, which both hold up really well.

Thanks! Doug

chrobry · Jul 19, 2007

I am using Arches Platine and Weston Diploma for most of my kallitype work with preference to the Weston. Actually I am surprised to hear that Weston is a fragile paper, but I do not print larger formats them 8x10. Up to this size it seems quite strong to me. I do nothing special handling this paper. I also printed on some japanese tissue papers - these are fragile!
Jan

blaze-on · Jul 20, 2007

The Weston is fragile, at least at 11x14 size, which I use for 8x10 negs. I started trimming it down about an inch on two sides, and helps some, but still tears easily. My next idea was to use some linen tape, what I use for mat hinging, along the edges after a quick wash and dry. Then wash more thoroughly.

From what I know, the Kozo heavy is a machine made paper, not handmade.
The Kozo light printed a little softer than the weston and maybe needed 5-10% more exposure.

Loris Medici · Jul 20, 2007

Indeed one has to be careful for sizes 11x14 and up. I have teared the corners of the paper more than once at that size... Using a plexiglass support sheet may be a good idea for that size.

Regards,
Loris.

blaze-on said:
The Weston is fragile, at least at 11x14 size, which I use for 8x10 negs. I started trimming it down about an inch on two sides, and helps some, but still tears easily. My next idea was to use some linen tape, what I use for mat hinging, along the edges after a quick wash and dry. Then wash more thoroughly.

From what I know, the Kozo heavy is a machine made paper, not handmade.
The Kozo light printed a little softer than the weston and maybe needed 5-10% more exposure.

wilsonneal · Jul 22, 2007

Weston paper for Pt Pd

I've gotten frustrated with the Weston, personally. I like the color okay, and the speed of clearing, but it's just too fragile. Unfortunately, I have quite a bit of it.

One problem with the Weston I noticed: The paper is now actually picking up the color of the very dark PotOx I am using. This stain doesn't wash out. This just started happening. I am thinking it's time to do some sort of filtration of my developer.

Question: if I wait until the dark solids settle and decant the clear PotOx, would that be a true PotOx developer or do some of the ingredients in PotOx separate out. I noticed that after letting my developer sit for several weeks it was clear on top and muck on the bottom.

To prove it was the paper, I used a sheet of the COT320 from the B&S sample pack. Shouldn't have done that because now I am just totally convinced that there is no better paper for my work . The 3 prints I pulled with the COT were just a joy. I have resisted this paper solely due to cost, but now I must work with it.

Neal

photomc · Jul 22, 2007

Neal used a little of the Weston last weekend as well and tend to agree. It is very much like working with Cranes Kid Finish (though it is stronger than the Cranes).

You might want to check the pH of your developer, if it is above 6 add a little Oxalic acid to bring it back below 6. I use a coffee filter to filter mine, and also find that when I am printing in groups that the volume has to be topped off, but when printing just 4-6 in a session, I do not notice as much.

The COT320 is a very nice paper (did I mention how nice it is ). You can use some Arches Platine, which is very close and not quite as $$. Got mine from Talas, but Daniel Smith also has it. Give it a try, I don't think you will be unhappy with it.

wilsonneal · Jul 22, 2007

thanks for the tip Mike. I checked it and it's about 5.5. so don't think that that's the issue. I just think it's got a lot of metal in it. I'm going to let it settle, decant the good stuff and run a test with that.
Thanks
Neal

cullah · Jul 22, 2007

Hi Everyone,
Until it was discontinued, my favorite paper for pt/pd was a paper named Socorro. It coated effortlessy and printed a beautiful image time after time. So out goes a time tested favorite and the search begins for a replacement. I have tested several of the papers in the sample pack from B&S but so far, no luck. By far the worst paper I have ever used is the Bergger Cot. Horrible images and four ruined negatives. I truly regret paying +/_ $50for this paper, I can only assume that being at sea level is part of the answer. I have had better luck with the Weston Diploma, but it is , as noted, delicate and sometimes has a tendency to ripple after coating. I'm not sure what to try next. Any suggestions? Thanks.
Peter

TheFlyingCamera · Jul 22, 2007

I don't think sea level has anything to do with it, unless you're coating and printing on a beach in salt air. I'm in Washington DC, which is pretty close to sea level, and have had NO problems with the COT 320. How did the paper itself ruin your negs?

z-man · Jul 23, 2007

kozo or kudzu?

blaze-on said:
I tried the kozo light (handmade) for a 4x5 and I liked the look...softer...when wet I thought it would dissolve when I touched it but it's stronger than the Weston Diploma.
It's weird when wet too...you see all the fibers and looks almost transparent. Kinda cool for the right image. I'll try the heavy and see what happens..

who makes the kozo-bark paper you-all are using?

awagami paper factory makes at least 4 kinds of paperthat have kozo bark in them

the 10 gr is pure kozo and is machine made

46 gr kozo-natural is handmade

the kozo hemp is nice-42 gr

btw-why do you-all expect writing paper to have any wet strength???

vaya con dios

bwphoto · Jul 23, 2007

Suggestion to solve tearing with fragile papers

I experienced everything others have in working w/Weston and Bienfang 360 (even worse than Weston). The stuff would tear and scuff in the baths. What I have done is to back my papers with a shirt backing material (used by sewers) it may be obtained from JoAnn's fabrics, or any fabric store. Place the (polyester based) material behind your exposed platinum print before going into the baths and carry it through clearing and into the wash cycle. One note, cut your backing larger than your print so you have something to handle the print. Amazing thing is, the backing stays right with the print while wet and it can be reused after washing. The backing material is very inexpensive, comes in 40 - 50 inch wide long rolls and they will cut it to your specs.

Akki14 · Jul 24, 2007

I do wonder if I'm the only sewer/photographer around here. What bwphoto is suggesting is called Interfacing and you probably want the nonfusible (not for ironing on) stuff. It's used to stiffen up flimsy fabrics especially in dressmaking. I've seen it suggested on here to use in between FB prints when tray washing.

z-man · Jul 26, 2007

only the lonely

Akki14 said:
I do wonder if I'm the only sewer/photographer around here. What bwphoto is suggesting is called Interfacing and you probably want the nonfusible (not for ironing on) stuff. It's used to stiffen up flimsy fabrics especially in dressmaking. I've seen it suggested on here to use in between FB prints when tray washing.

no you aint the only one

there are many materials in the sewing/kniting/fabric stores that are usable for photo imageing--also the plumbing shop and the car repair store etc as i have tried in many posts to point out to people

"alt processes" are the old way of doing things and it was done in the kitchen and the garage and the bathroom with the materials that were in common use everyday, at the time

in the sewing shop you will fine polyvynalalchohol in sheet form-it is tuf enuf to sew/serge metal chain to and of course it disolves in water

modified gum printing for one off fabric projects--and there was inko dye-- a brand of light sensative heat devloped dyes that could be used without a darkroom

the "interfacing" can be used as a substitute for glass mat for a 'fiberglass' like composite material also

photography was devloped at a time when every one knew how to make everyting that a person needed-even if they were rich enuf to hire someone else to do it for them

vaya con dios

Colin Graham · Jul 30, 2007

I ordered some kozo from B&S and really like it, only cant remember now if it was light or heavy. Feels about like 70-90lb paper. Lovely stuff, but not exactly cheap. I didnt see much difference in terms of detail or contrast or print color against the same image on platine, though the texture certainly was very different.

z-man · Jul 30, 2007

water color paper comes from art supply stores

Colin Graham said:
I ordered some kozo from B&S and really like it, only cant remember now if it was light or heavy. Feels about like 70-90lb paper. Lovely stuff, but not exactly cheap. I didnt see much difference in terms of detail or contrast or print color against the same image on platine, though the texture certainly was very different.

paper made with kozo bark is purpose made for water color artists and others who have needed wet strength-all the original photo methods relied on such paper bcause it was allready there and had the wet strength to survive

when the printing industry standardized on planographic lithography wet strength became a primary issue-they are the largest consumer of paper and paper like materials that require wet strength other than coffee filters and the like

i repeat my earlier question-

who makes the kozo-bark paper that b&s is converting?--it may be that you can get it cheaper from an art supply

why do you use paper that is not made for wet strength-writing and cover paper--and expect it to survive water baths?????

did not the first artists using photography all use water color paper for that reason?

i dont know the history of turning to paper that is not manufactured for wet strength so my ignorance of the reasons leaves me wondering why anyone would do it

i suppose that if the tp runs out one could use sand paper-not my choice tho

vaya con dios

TheFlyingCamera · Jul 30, 2007

Z-man-

I understand your question about papers not made for wet strength, but asking it that way is unlikely to generate a response. For my own perspective, I don't know why someone would use a paper not made to get wet - I've tried a few and had results ranging from unacceptable to disastrous. That's why I stick to the COT320.

z-man · Jul 30, 2007

blank glazed eyes like a jacked deer

TheFlyingCamera said:
Z-man-

I understand your question about papers not made for wet strength, but asking it that way is unlikely to generate a response. For my own perspective, I don't know why someone would use a paper not made to get wet - I've tried a few and had results ranging from unacceptable to disastrous. That's why I stick to the COT320.

who makes the kozo(anybody know?) b&s converts? any body? no ?

i would like to find out what the reasons are/were for using a paper other than water color for process that require water baths

i am thinking that if i had that data i would understand much of what i read in much of the posts-i don't understand much of what i read

so sorry if what is normal nyc speak is not clear to others

vaya con dios

TheFlyingCamera · Jul 30, 2007

The reasons some folks may try other papers:

A: budget- they either can't afford or are too cheap to use heavy papers.
B: experimentation - they want to try the paper to see if it works for a given process
C: prior experience - some other folks have tried certain papers like the Cranes 90# cover, and found that they respond well to the pt/pd chemistry, and so new folks coming along try them too out of recommendations by others.

I don't know who Bostick & Sullivan is getting their Kozo paper from. Why not call them and ask?

Kozo heavy paper, first impression

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Kozo heavy paper, first impression

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