Kodalith in modern developers

[hey guys]

Hello all,

I picked up a cheap 100ft x 35mm spool of Kodalith 6556, freezer stored, expired 2001.

I have shot a few test rolls already, mostly rating at ISO 6 and switching between spot metering the highlights and the shadows (as I plan to develop high contrast and I want to get a good idea of what results are produced by different techniques). I have also shot a few rolls at fixed shutter and aperture with off camera flash (playing with harsh shadows).

If it makes a difference, I am primarily interested in using Kodalith in its intended ultra high contrast graphic arts mode, and getting interesting darkroom results by performing multiple exposures of normal tone film onto the resultant patterns and textures. I am not trying to develop for continuous tone as some do.

Now it's time to develop. I have Ilfotec DD-X and it's pretty much all I use, for modern stuff and for older tech emulsions like Pan F. I am very happy with it, and it is well within my budget to use it for everything. I did some research and I can't find any starting point for dev time/technique.

Here's where you come in! Can anyone provide:

Real life data for Kodalith @ ISO 6 in DD-X (exceedingly unlikely, I am the first to admit)?

An educated guess based on experience with this emulsion or anything like it?

A complete shot in the dark?

Yell at me for doing everything wrong?

More seriously, as my film dev area is not in my actual darkroom and developing roll film by inspection sounds tedious, how would Apugers suggest I approach developing an untested, discontinued, expired emulsion? What controls should I be setting?

Thanks in advance for any assistance or criticism!

 

[Mike Crawford]

Surely for 'ultra high contrast graphic arts', best to use lith developer. Sadly Kodalith developer is long gone, but probably Fotospeed is the closest. Now, all lith devs give instructions and dilution guides for lith printing, where the developer is highly diluted, but for conventional use with lith film, has to be at a 'normal' dilution. With the Kodak dev, it was I think 1 part A+3 parts water / 1 part B+3 parts water, develop for 2.45 mins, (or was it 3?). Can't remember if was continuous agitation. However, that is plucked from memory so best to find a published source of information. The point was, that unlike 'lith printing' the film was developed to completion to ensure there were no midtones.

Using lith film, then printing and over-printing in the darkroom as a series of grays can get some really interesting results.

Here's a pdf link which mentions using Fotospeed Lith dev for lith film at the end.
http://www.digitaltruth.com/products/fotospeed_tech/Fotospeed_LD20_Lith_Instr.pdf

 

[Mike Crawford]

Thinking about it, you may also get a good contrast by processing in strong print developer. Probably not a pure line effect, but printed on G5 should work.

 

[nworth]

For the black + white with nothing in between, a lith developer like D-8 works best. But exposure can be tricky. For almost the same effect, but maybe with a few middle tones, try Dektol or something like it. For extreme contrast but with some definite middle tones, try D-76 or D-23, maybe with a small amount of bromide and or extra dilution. For even more middle tones, but still high contrast, try a document developer like POTA or Delagi-8.

 

[hey guys]

Didn't mean to post and run; it's been a busy week. Thank you for your replies, they really helped me think though and visualize what I am trying to accomplish.

A friend has just dropped off some Arista lith developer, the powder A/B type. ( http://www.freestylephoto.biz/50022-Arista-Powder-A-B-Lith-Developer-1-Gallon ). I am going to start with this since it is purpose built for the task, but if I can't get the results I want I will definitely try some of the developers you suggested. It really is essential for the visual style that I have as few midtones as possible in the lith negatives and normal contrast in the other negatives, so playing around with contrast at the print stage would be very tricky indeed. To deal with exposure unpredictability, I think I'll use a more modern camera like my F100 and just bracket like crazy. It was cheap bulk film; why not?

"Arista Powder A&B Lith Developer is a two part, non-corrosive, economical developer specifically designed for use with Arista Ortho 2.0, Arista II Ortho Litho, Arista APHS Halftone and Kodalith films. It is also specially formulated for use in the the Lith Printing process of standard B&W photographic papers."

I have never used a powder developer before, and it's slightly confusing since it has a short blurb on the packaging rather than the extensive datasheets I'm used to. What should I do to be careful about my health, seeing as I live in the city and doing it outdoors would be difficult? Is it overkill to wear a gas mask and steam clean the sink immediately after mixing?

I think I'm supposed to mix each packet with distilled water until I have a gallon of solution A and a gallon or solution B. Then for film I just mix both parts before use and use guesswork on the times? I don't think the powder developer is in the massive dev chart, and I have read it's a completely different formulation than Arista's liquid A/B lith developer. Interestingly, the MSDS refers to it as NaccoLith, so I guess that it's the same product. Maybe I should be bothering Freestyle about this

Also, sidebar: is there any way to figure out the shelf life of the unmixed A & B solutions? I have a lith printing project I'm not quite ready to begin and it would be cool if the developer lasted a while.

Thanks again for your input!

 

[Newt_on_Swings]

If you keep them seperate and in air tight containers they should last awhile. The good thing about lith films is that you can develop by inspection and then snatch them when the are to your liking and dump them into the stop. You should only do this with a dim red lamp though.

 

[nworth]

It's been a lot of years since I used an A+B lith developer, but my memory of the experience was that it lasted a day or two when mixed - no more.

 

[Newt_on_Swings]

When mixed A+B solutions go really fast, especially in an open tray.

 

[MattKing]

I have never used a powder developer before, and it's slightly confusing since it has a short blurb on the packaging rather than the extensive datasheets I'm used to. What should I do to be careful about my health, seeing as I live in the city and doing it outdoors would be difficult? Is it overkill to wear a gas mask and steam clean the sink immediately after mixing?

Yes, it would be overkill! The MSDS is relatively innocuous. If this developer required extraordinary safety measures (compared to other darkroom chemicals) then it would no doubt be labelled with those requirements. If you take reasonable care, there should be no danger.

Here are some suggestions:

Don't mix it up in a strong wind.

Make sure you have reasonable ventilation.

Work in a clean, and easily cleaned area. When you clean up afterwards, use lots of water.

Mix in a container that is big enough to constrain any powder "spray".

Don't shake up the powder unnecessarily.

Have fun!

 

[Mike Crawford]

Didn't mean to post and run; it's been a busy week. Thank you for your replies, they really helped me think though and visualize what I am trying to accomplish.

A friend has just dropped off some Arista lith developer, the powder A/B type. ( http://www.freestylephoto.biz/50022-Arista-Powder-A-B-Lith-Developer-1-Gallon ). I am going to start with this since it is purpose built for the task, but if I can't get the results I want I will definitely try some of the developers you suggested. It really is essential for the visual style that I have as few midtones as possible in the lith negatives and normal contrast in the other negatives, so playing around with contrast at the print stage would be very tricky indeed. To deal with exposure unpredictability, I think I'll use a more modern camera like my F100 and just bracket like crazy. It was cheap bulk film; why not?

"Arista Powder A&B Lith Developer is a two part, non-corrosive, economical developer specifically designed for use with Arista Ortho 2.0, Arista II Ortho Litho, Arista APHS Halftone and Kodalith films. It is also specially formulated for use in the the Lith Printing process of standard B&W photographic papers."

I have never used a powder developer before, and it's slightly confusing since it has a short blurb on the packaging rather than the extensive datasheets I'm used to. What should I do to be careful about my health, seeing as I live in the city and doing it outdoors would be difficult? Is it overkill to wear a gas mask and steam clean the sink immediately after mixing?

I think I'm supposed to mix each packet with distilled water until I have a gallon of solution A and a gallon or solution B. Then for film I just mix both parts before use and use guesswork on the times? I don't think the powder developer is in the massive dev chart, and I have read it's a completely different formulation than Arista's liquid A/B lith developer. Interestingly, the MSDS refers to it as NaccoLith, so I guess that it's the same product. Maybe I should be bothering Freestyle about this

Also, sidebar: is there any way to figure out the shelf life of the unmixed A & B solutions? I have a lith printing project I'm not quite ready to begin and it would be cool if the developer lasted a while.

Thanks again for your input!

Lith dev sounds the best way to go. It probably would be a good idea to get the correct published dev time for lith film in that particular developer and then stick to that but bracket for your tests. When I used to do a lot of 35mm liths on a rostrum camera for text slides, we always used the dev as one shot as once A and B are mixed, they do not last.

There's a thread just now at Filmwasters which might be of interest to you.
http://www.filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=6726.0