Kodak XTOL trade concern announcment

miha · Jan 7, 2021

Oh, the never-ending XTOL saga... My experience with this developer started and ended in 1999. I read so much about it over at photo.net at that time that I needed to try it myself. I got the 2x1 L package, mixed one liter of it, and developed two rolls of TMY. The negs I got were almost blank. It took me years to learn about the supposedly defective 1 L sachets. Now one can read about the Fenton reaction in addition as well. Anyway, to this day I kept the unmixed half of it as a souvenir, and just took this picture today to show how the package looked like 22 years ago:

One day I might mix it just for fun. Maybe this half survived somehow

mnemosyne · Jan 7, 2021

Back to topic:
The "trade concern" announcement has appeared on the Kodak Alaris website. The interesting tidbit is that obviously Kodak Alaris (or Sino Promise) has dropped its last supplier (Tetenal?) and is expecting shipments from a new supplier in February.

Service Bulletin 1/4/2021: XTOL Catalog #1058338

Click to expand...

XTOL Catalog #1058338, batches with the following Date Codes: 2019/10/07, 2019/12/19, 2020/02/25, 2020/02/26, 2020/02/27 are facing a trade concern. We expect production from our new supplier in early February with product available shortly afterwards. If you have purchased this product and have not already done so, please send an email with your contact information, the product/quantity purchased to ProPaperChem@kodakalaris.com for replacement instructions.

source: https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/photographers-photo-printing/resources/chem-tech-info

Donald Qualls · Jan 7, 2021

Wonder how long it'll take them to get back to those who've already emailed?

MattKing · Jan 7, 2021

They have also updated the Dektol notice on that website page.

Andrew O'Neill · Jan 7, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
Wonder how long it'll take them to get back to those who've already emailed?

I heard back from them a few days ago... and they're sending me replacement packages. To me, it looks like there's nothing wrong with the packages that I purchased last week. Nine, 8x10 sheets in replenished Xtol so far, and all looks well.

Donald Qualls · Jan 7, 2021

Andrew O'Neill said:
I heard back from them a few days ago... and they're sending me replacement packages. To me, it looks like there's nothing wrong with the packages that I purchased last week. Nine, 8x10 sheets in replenished Xtol so far, and all looks well.

I haven't heard, yet -- unless I missed the reply. I'll check again in detail when I'm home.

ericdan · Jan 7, 2021

pentaxuser said:
Thanks, ericdan, for the clarification so the stock solution you made was the same but the thin negs occurred later in that stock's life. The way it was written suggested to me that it was the opposite way round. It was thin negs at first then later OK negs.

It sounds as if later in the stock's life was approx 5 weeks later. While this does seem a rapid deterioration a lot may depend on how the stock was stored in the interim

How was it stored?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Stock solution was stored in PET bottles topped off with wine preserver gas. (see post above yours)

I have read a lot about xtol on this forum. I am aware of the problem with too high dilutions. I don't do that. I stored it in PET bottles filled to the very top. Partially filled bottles I put inert gas in to keep it from oxidizing. Yes, I could use glass bottles, but would that really solve the problem? My stock solution wasn't that old. I have used xtol before and kept my stock solution for almost a year without any issues.

Andrew O'Neill · Jan 7, 2021

ericdan said:
Stock solution was stored in PET bottles topped off with wine preserver gas. (see post above yours)

I have read a lot about xtol on this forum. I am aware of the problem with too high solutions. I don't do that. I stored it in PET bottles filled to the very top. Partially filled bottles I put inert gas in to keep it from oxidizing. Yes, I could use glass bottles, but would that really solve the problem? My stock solution wasn't that old. I have used xtol before and kept my stock solution for almost a year without any issues.

I too use PET bottles. I squeeze the air out until solution is at the brim, then cap tightly. Has worked well.

pentaxuser · Jan 7, 2021

Thanks ericdan It certainly looks like your batch was not up to scratch in the longevity stakes

I wonder who the new supplier is?

pentaxuser

mnemosyne · Jan 7, 2021

pentaxuser said:
Thanks ericdan It certainly looks like your batch was not up to scratch in the longevity stakes

I wonder who the new supplier is?

pentaxuser

I am just speculating, but given the fact that the new Chinese owner of the b&w chemistry business is already in possession of manufacturing facilities for the Kodak color photo chemistry products in China, it would make sense to relocate production there, unless there is some compelling reason (logistics or whatever) that production ist better situated somewhere in Europe (or the US). This would also allow for tighter quality control, which is probably warranted after this unprecedented series of glitches that threaten to damage the reputation of Kodak branded b&w photo chemistry products permanently, IMO.

MattKing · Jan 7, 2021

All the liquid black and white chemicals seem to now have had their production moved to the USA. Kodak Alaris already had that factory in China for colour photo chemicals, so I would assume that it wasn't the best choice for them for black and white chemicals.
I expect that, when compared to colour, the black and white chemical volumes involved are tiny. And I'm sure there are all sorts of market realities that we here have no inkling of.

MattKing · Jan 7, 2021

Old Gregg said:
If you were to guess, what would you say is the ratio of color/bw in film / chemical sales? Is it safe to assume the ratio hasn't changed much in years? (if ever).

Back in the 1970s and early 1980s, when I worked in retail, we probably sold 1000 rolls of colour film for every one black and white film.
But only one of the stores I worked at had any darkroom sales.
We sold a lot of Kodachrome. A fair bit of color negative film as well, but this was before mini-labs really became popular. It was mini-labs that really caused people and the market to move almost entirely to colour print material.
I can't ever remember having a customer give me a black and white film for processing. Although one store did take in work for a custom black and white photo lab.
By that time, black and white was a niche product, while colour was main stream.
The two biggest users of black and white back then would have been school programs and newspapers. And newspapers were beginning to go to colour.
Now they are both niche products, but my guess is that there would be a similar ratio in play.

pentaxuser · Jan 7, 2021

It does make one wonder about the future of a largish company such as Ilford ( large in respect of Fama or Adox) who are solely b&w. Yes I know they have inkjet as well but there comes a point that if the non b&w analogue stuff is subsiding analogue b&w then the new owners who have no previous history of b&w as far as I know would wish to maintain that side of the business?

Unless there are things in the Iford scene that Matt's knowledge does not cover and which puts Ilford's analogue b&w in a much better place?

pentaxuser

MattKing · Jan 7, 2021

pentaxuser said:
It does make one wonder about the future of a largish company such as Ilford ( large in respect of Fama or Adox) who are solely b&w. Yes I know they have inkjet as well but there comes a point that if the non b&w analogue stuff is subsiding analogue b&w then the new owners who have no previous history of b&w as far as I know would wish to maintain that side of the business?

Unless there are things in the Iford scene that Matt's knowledge does not cover and which puts Ilford's analogue b&w in a much better place?

pentaxuser

It seems to me that Harman is pretty well sized, for the market they seek to supply.
The three Kodaks (Sino Promise being a sort of Kodak) have the advantage of more cash flow though, which can mean a greater ability to respond to things like a world wide pandemic.
Kodak Alaris and Sino Promise have the advantage of not being tied to a specific location.

NB23 · Jan 7, 2021

Just fiy, Coca-Cola could never afford one single canister to taste differently than what Coca-Cola is supposed to be tasting. That would be a marketing disaster.

And here we have kodak messing around with our negatives and it’s supposed to be ok?

NB23 · Jan 8, 2021

Old Gregg said:
@NB23, I understand the point you're trying to make, but your example doesn't work Coca-Cola tastes differently in many countries. When I lived in Texas, bringing Mexican Coca-Cola from over the border was a special treat, as they used sugar instead of HFCS and it was less sweet and had more bite.

Yes it tastes different in many countries, but it’s standardized. Same for Big Macs. And to get my point across, that variation you are talking about puts any Coke afficionado off-guard once they change countries.

People expect that exact taste they have been used to. Mexican Coca-Cola will always taste the same. It won’t taste american one day, russian the next day, african the third day.

Mexican Coca-Cola is distinct and is ultra standardized. So is Russian Coca-Cola. And so on.

You rember the “coke” polemic? Well, that gets the point across. People didn’t accept it, and Coke brought back “classic Coca-Cola”

This is all text book example.
Management 101.

And Kodak is messing big time. In Kodak’s business, the rule number one, the Rule that rules all the other rules, the Golden Rule, it has one name: Consistency.

Consistency is a word that Kodak doesn’t understand.

mshchem · Jan 8, 2021

MattKing said:
I can't think of any manufacturer who actually sells photo chemicals that they manufacture and sell under their own name and own brand.
Sino Promise make (in China) the Kodak branded colour photo chemicals they sell. They got the factories from Kodak Alaris, although I don't know what the name on those factories is.

Here's a link to Sino Promise Group according to a paragraph I see, they claim to make color chemistry, color and black and white film, and black and white paper

http://www.sinopromise.com.cn/en/bizNuoxiang.php

Since 1st Dec., 2016, Sino Promise High-Tech Materials（Wuxi）Co. Ltd., a subsidiary of Sino Promise Group Ltd., officially took over the production business of Kodak Alaris in Wuxi City, China. It mainly manufactureschemicals for Medical X-ray film, Industrial film, Black &White and Color film, Color andBlack &White photographic paper andthe chemical kits for Digital printing,under our self-ownedbrand name "Sino".

wyofilm · Jan 8, 2021

mshchem said:
Here's a link to Sino Promise Group according to a paragraph I see, they claim to make color chemistry, color and black and white film, and black and white paper

http://www.sinopromise.com.cn/en/bizNuoxiang.php

Since 1st Dec., 2016, Sino Promise High-Tech Materials（Wuxi）Co. Ltd., a subsidiary of Sino Promise Group Ltd., officially took over the production business of Kodak Alaris in Wuxi City, China. It mainly manufactureschemicals for Medical X-ray film, Industrial film, Black &White and Color film, Color andBlack &White photographic paper andthe chemical kits for Digital printing,under our self-ownedbrand name "Sino".

We need a program to keep things straight! Anyway, the language is sufficiently vague to keep from knowing if Sino manufactures all chems for KA or not. Somewhere during this thread I got the impression that b/w chems, at least, were made by some outfit in the US. Never mind. If Sino has been making KA chems for the last 4 years, then they are the ones responsible or the lousy Xtol and the lousy Dektol.

There has been a movement for some time: 'Know where your food comes from.' Knowing where my photochems come from isn't a mountain to die on, but when possible my money will continue to support companies that support clarity in business and fair trade - those are my 'trade concerns'.

AgX · Jan 8, 2021

MattKing said:
Back in the 1970s and early 1980s.
I can't ever remember having a customer give me a black and white film for processing.
By that time, black and white was a niche product, while colour was main stream.

Nobody handed in B&W film for processing as by then practically everyone still using B&W film was self-processing.

In the current situation I assume that the share of B&W film against colour film sent to a lab even has risen.

pentaxuser · Jan 8, 2021

NB23 said:
J

And here we have kodak messing around with our negatives and it’s supposed to be ok?

What is it Kodak is doing with the negatives? Apart from charging too much for them that is

Thanks

pentaxuser

AgX · Jan 8, 2021

mshchem said:
Here's a link to Sino Promise Group according to a paragraph I see, they claim to make color chemistry, color and black and white film, and black and white paper

http://www.sinopromise.com.cn/en/bizNuoxiang.php

Since 1st Dec., 2016, Sino Promise High-Tech Materials（Wuxi）Co. Ltd., a subsidiary of Sino Promise Group Ltd., officially took over the production business of Kodak Alaris in Wuxi City, China. It mainly manufactureschemicals for Medical X-ray film, Industrial film, Black &White and Color film, Color andBlack &White photographic paper andthe chemical kits for Digital printing,under our self-ownedbrand name "Sino".

One can read that as"making film & paper",
but also as "making chemicals for: film & paper".

Problem is that people writing such texts often are not good at writing or at critcically questioning what they just wrote on chances to be understood other than intended.

mnemosyne · Jan 8, 2021

wyofilm said:
We need a program to keep things straight! Anyway, the language is sufficiently vague to keep from knowing if Sino manufactures all chems for KA or not. Somewhere during this thread I got the impression that b/w chems, at least, were made by some outfit in the US. Never mind. If Sino has been making KA chems for the last 4 years, then they are the ones responsible or the lousy Xtol and the lousy Dektol.

There has been a movement for some time: 'Know where your food comes from.' Knowing where my photochems come from isn't a mountain to die on, but when possible my money will continue to support companies that support clarity in business and fair trade - those are my 'trade concerns'.

Not so fast ...

The statement quoted does not say whether they are manufacturing all these chemicals/prodcuts exclusively for Kodak Alaris. The B&W chemistry mentioned could well be product sold under an own brand or made for a third party.
It is an undisputed fact that Kodak Wuxi, which is now owned by Sinopromise, has been manufacturing the complete Kodak cholor chemistry for some years.
I have heard ZERO complaints about "lousy" Kodak color chemistry in recent years (I am myself an occasional user of Flexicolor and Ektacolor products and have not encountered any problems); this would speak for the quality of the products manufactured in Wuxi.
Concerning Kodak Alaris B&W chemistry, there is some uncertainty (at least on my part) as to where current/recent Kodak Alaris b&w chemistry has been actually produced. The last supplier I know of were Tetenal (Germany), but someone mentioned production had been moved to the US recently (in the aftermath of the Tetenal bankruptcy?) --- I frankly don't know

I think a lesson that can be drawn from the recent disaster with Xtol et al is that long term relations with suppliers are desirable when consistency/reliability in product quality matters and that repeated switching of suppliers is possibly detrimental to that objective

wyofilm · Jan 8, 2021

mnemosyne said:
The statement quoted does not say whether they are manufacturing all these chemicals/prodcuts exclusively for Kodak Alaris. The B&W chemistry mentioned could well be product sold under an own brand or made for a third party.

Yes, as I wrote the language was vague. Any I then began "If Sino ...

mnemosyne said:
I have heard ZERO complaints about "lousy" Kodak color chemistry in recent years (I am myself an occasional user of Flexicolor and Ektacolor products and have not encountered any problems); this would speak for the quality of the products manufactured in Wuxi.

I only mention Xtol and Dektol as being lousy. They have been.

mnemosyne said:
Concerning Kodak Alaris B&W chemistry, there is some uncertainty (at least on my part) as to where current/recent Kodak Alaris b&w chemistry has been actually produced. The last supplier I know of were Tetenal (Germany), but someone mentioned production had been moved to the US recently (in the aftermath of the Tetenal bankruptcy?) --- I frankly don't know

KA/Sino seem to be the only player that didn't handle the Tetenal crises well.

Peter Schrager · Jan 8, 2021

paulbarden said:
Maybe get off the Complain Train and buy the components you need to compound your favorite developer yourself? That's what I'm doing for the foreseeable future, with the exception of Formulary's PMK, which I will continue to buy. I've bought what I need to make D-76 at home, (Artcraft) and it will be simple, reliable, and I can make only as much as I need at any given time. What could be better?

just mixed up some instant mytol...not bad although I overdeveloped a little! I'm a long term Xtol user and it's my favorite developer!

MattKing · Jan 8, 2021

wyofilm said:
We need a program to keep things straight! Anyway, the language is sufficiently vague to keep from knowing if Sino manufactures all chems for KA or not.

Kodak Alaris no longer sells photo chemicals. They just sold that business to Sino Promise.
Before the sale, they did manufacture colour chemicals. They had a factory in China, and I believe a factory in South America. They sold those factories to Sino Promise as part of the sale.
They may have also contracted out some of the colour chemical manufacture.
At one time, Kodak Alaris manufactured colour paper at the Harrow plant in England, at at some other locations around the world (which were probably leased). They sold Harrow and closed down all the paper manufacturing, transferring that business to Colorado in the Carestream facility (which they might have still had a leasehold interest in. There may have been one other leased factory (South America). In any event, Sino Promise bought all that.
Kodak Alaris never manufactured black and white chemicals, because by the time it went bankrupt, Eastman Kodak no longer manufactured black and white chemicals - they had contracted that out. Kodak Alaris just continued what Eastman Kodak had been doing.

Kodak XTOL trade concern announcment

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