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Kodak XTOL Replenish vs One shot

Robert Ley

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Joined
Jun 9, 2004
Messages
699
Location
Buffalo, New
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Multi Format
I first used XTOL in 2011 and shortly after that I was concentrating more on color and digital and really did not get a chance to use it much. After about ten plus years of not shooting B&W I'm getting back into it and would like to try XTOL again.

I have read most of the treads about XTOL and have a few questions. I just bought a 5lt bag of XTOL powder and was surprised in that I thought that they had sent a 1lt bag as it was so small compared to the old Kodak XTOL.
I would like to try XTOL-R and have purchased a good two liter brown glass bottle and a collapsible storage bag that I can keep the stock solution for replenishment or to use 1:1 as a one shot if I want.
I understand that the XTOL-R needs to be seasoned before you can get consistent results usually accomplished by process 6-8 rolls of film and then replenishment starts. I found a bunch of old 35mm film that I could use to (pre-season) the XTOL. I had heard that a few photograpers of old would use old film to pre-season D76 and I'm wondering if I could use this same technique.

I would also appreciate your insights on using XTOL replenish vs one shot.
 
I've used both one shot and replenished. They both work fine. I use one shot when I am using a jobo process. It is easy for me to make 5 l of xtol because I have the equipment. And use the jobo. But I have used replenished and it works great. I would use a Patterson tank or something similar if using a replenishment method. But it also will work fine with a Jobo. Replenishment is stable and economical.
 
You can definitely use old film for seasoning XTOL-R. I suspect the differences between seasoned and unseasoned are subtle and would be difficult to see if you truly A-B compared the same negs.

I use XTOL one-shot despite being tempted to do XTOL-R just because I have limited time in my life.

I store XTOL in a wine bag to keep air away from it and I've had excellent shelf life. I still do the paper test with drops of stock to make sure it's working.
 
As you will notice from your review of the threads, I am an X-Tol R devotee.
Your suggestion about using the old film to season the working solution is fine - just adjust the time gradually between the shorter times for using fresh stock and the longer times for using replenished developer. A straight line approximation to the necessary time adjustment should be fine.
You could probably just do your regular photography and do the same. The results will be sufficiently similar that you should be happy with the results throughout the seasoning process.
While I see some subtle benefits to the image quality, the biggest benefits for me arise because of the ease of use and economy.
Whether or not you use inversion or rotation agitation, I strongly advise always using the same volume of replenished X-Tol in your developing tank, whether or not you have 1, 2, 3 or 4 rolls in there. That will help maintain better consistency over time. As you are using it replenished, their is no economic downside to doing so.
 
Hi Matt, I appreciate you chiming in here. I have a question on times with the XTOL-R. Do you use the times for stock when it is seasoned or are those the times for fresh XTOL and how do you adjust the times once seasoned? I will be using the Paterson tanks that I just got, the two reel and three reel tanks. I realize that developing times are personal to your particular technique and your times might not work for me. I'm looking for a rule of thumb for using XTOL-R and I'd like to get in the ballpark for times. Thanks for your help.
I'm also thinking of getting a B's processor https://www.bounetphoto.com/bounet-designs-analog-shop to use with my new Paterson tanks. Has anyone used one of these processors or tell me what you think of the processor.
 
X-Tol R times will be close to the times for X-Tol 1+1 used one-shot, so that is what I would start out with as a target time.
I have for years used the "Developing Computer" in the old Kodak Darkroom Dataguides to set my development time, according to the ambient temperature of the working solution that happens to be in effect when I go to develop film.
Over the years, I have refined the "Development Number" that one uses with that "Computer" for each film developed.
I note on each sheet of negative holders the Development number used for that roll, and I visually evaluate the negative development regularly.
I think I am currently using Development Number "38" with oldish T-Max 400 and my several year old batch of working solution - that is for subjects exposed under reasonably average lighting.
And all of my development is done in a 3x135/2x120 reel Paterson Super System IV tank, filld with 1 litre of developer.
First 30 seconds using continuous reversing rotary agitation, with the rest of the development using hand inversion - 5 seconds each 30 seconds.
 
The J108 publication from 1996 gives times for fresh and replenished developer in a Jobo.
 

Attachments

  • j108-1996_09 Xtol Jobo.pdf
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REMEMBER THAT YOU NEED A MINIMUM OF 100 ML OF STOCK SOLUTION TO USE XTOL DILUTED ONE SHOT. FOR 1+3 100 ML OF STOCK AND 300 ML OF WATER PER 120 OR 135-36. SO FOR JOBO AN OVER SIZED TANK. 1540 FOR ONE ROLL MINIMUM.
 
I prefer to use replenished XTOL over all other variations of development. I am not concerned with waiting for replenished XTOL to get seasoned since one batch can last me more than a year before I start a new batch.
 
Matt converted me to Xtol-R and I'm going to stay there for a while. It's the best all around developer I've used. Pushes well, gives the amount of contrast I need. I think it's the perfect stuff for scanning. Never printed from the negatives but it's made for really well scanning negatives.
 
Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Is there more to seasoning of XTol with old film than just adding a little bit of Potassium Bromide to the stock solution as developer starter? Latter is much more convenient.
Click to expand...

Historically, labs could purchase starter solutions to do just that.
The trick, of course, is to know how much Bromide to add. The Kodak starter included the calculation to deal with that.
When embarking on a replenishment regime, it is important to remember of course that the amount of used developer you discard is as important as the amount of fresh replenisher you add.
One of the strengths of XTol is that is designed to be self-replenishing. Other replenishment regimes - such as for D-76 or HC-110 - involve replenishers that differ from the freshly mixed developer. The other downside of those other replenishment regimes is that they tend to build up more byproducts, and tend to require that users discard working solution after a certain amount of replenishment. A properly replenished XTol system will not require such discard.
 
Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Is there more to seasoning of XTol with old film than just adding a little bit of Potassium Bromide to the stock solution as developer starter? Latter is much more convenient.
Click to expand...
According to the tech sheet, fresh Xtol can be seasoned by either:
a) adding 6.5ml per litre of developer starting solution (CAT 146 6382) or,
b) adding 1ml per litre EKTACHROME R-3 First Developer and Color Developer Starter (CAT 102 0072)



Extrapolating from the development times, it looks like an alternative procedure could be, per 135-36 or equivalent area, and per litre fresh Xtol:

Rolls 1-5: Use normal development time (example TMX time is 6 min, or 360s)

Rolls 6-10: Increase development time by 15% (new time is 360 x 1.15= 414s)

Rolls 11-12: Increase the above increased time by 15% (new time is 414 x 1.15= 476s)

Rolls 13 and beyond: Developer is considered fully seasoned, use it as a replenished system with replenished times.
 
MattKing said:
Historically, labs could purchase starter solutions to do just that.
The trick, of course, is to know how much Bromide to add. The Kodak starter included the calculation to deal with that.
Click to expand...

If the official recommendation can be translated to grams of Potassium Bromide, it would be helpful to those who want the developer to behave consistently from the very first roll. I would hazard a guess of 0.75 g per litre of XTol stock roughly equivalent to developing five rolls.
 
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I by some quirk of the darkroom gods have a bottle of the starter. Label says contains potassium bromide and sodium chloride. I've tasted it before (just a bit of crystals around the cap) doesn't taste like salt.

Boy if I had access to the lab I worked in 45 years ago I'd crack the formula.

I think it's pretty concentrated KBr solution. I suppose I could determine the specific gravity easy enough.

This is the kind of information that PSI could publish, or make a bottle. My 1 liter bottle has a price of $25 retail photo shop. I have used it a couple times for XTOL and I noted I used a wee bit for Ektachrome 1st developer.
 
I wouldn't get too terribly worried about seasoning and special seasoners. I had several rolls of old Shanghai 120 "red wrapper" film and seasoned my batches with that. Remember, even if you don't have old junk film you can run your new film through it and just use stock times then gradually move toward 1+1 times. I had a friend who switched to replenished Xtol and he seasoned his with some older fogged 5X7 sheets of enlarging paper. He said it worked just fine because the paper contained a heavy dose of silver being older paper.
The big plus for me when I switched to Xtol-R was when using a Yankee 4X5 12 sheet tank. That tank took a ton of developer to fill and if you used one shot developers you were pouring a lot of money down the drain. Xtol or Adox XT-3 are the best all-around developers I have ever used and will continue to use until something proves better. Note: I do prefer Adox XT-3 myself, but that's me.
I
 
Robert Ley said:
I would also appreciate your insights on using XTOL replenish vs one shot.
Click to expand...

Having used XTOL, Adox XT-3 and the forgotten little brother Foma fomadon Excel one shot (stock or diluted), reused, replenished...

For consistensy nothing beat using a stock or diluted solution one shot (with distilled water !), XTOL 1:1 being the safe, hard to mess and well documented dilution that I'd always recommend.

You should be aware that the XTOL-R solution won't be actually "stable" and the replenishement regime never meant for the low-volume hobbyists. The different films you'll put it trought, how dense they are .. WILL affect the working solution. Now what is up to personnal preference is where we put the cursor at "stable enough" for our workflow : you can i) do regular lab-like monitoring of the replenished solution and be thorought in how you adjust your replenishement rate accordingly ii) be more liberal about it and only experiment with changing the replenishement rate if/when you see significant change iii) don't bother about it at all and deal with the variation in negatives density when printing or scanning.
You may have already read a LOT of diverging opinion on this

The pragmatic approach would be to say that XTOL-R is a very good option if you shoot a lot and/or use LF. If you're more of a low-volume user and shoot mostly 35mm, XTOL 1:1 is "better".

But experimenting is fine and fun. Try XTOL-R and make your own opinion
 

I have started replenishment just after the first roll. It worked well and I have done that ever since.
 

I've put 50+ rolls of 135 and 120 through my Xtol-R in the past two years and I've not seen any variation. How small or large a volume you talking about? Sometimes the stuff will sit for 3 months with no action and others it'll get 15 rolls in a week. It's always seemed stable enough to me.
 

This is also true of D-23/DK-25R replenishment. The rule I've seen is to discard 75% of the working solution after replenisher equal to half its volume has been consumed; top up with fresh solution, and you have seasoned working solution without having to re-season as if fresh.

Of course, there will be different limits and processes for maintaining replenished HC-110 and D-76 (neither of which have still-manufactured replenishers, though ID-11 powder can be mixed to produce its replenisher -- and since ID-11 is the same as D-76, that replenisher ought to also work for D-76 even though D-76, packaged in one envelope, can't be mixed this way).

XTOL replenishment is much simpler -- just add 70 ml of fresh stock solution per 80 square inches of film developed, and discard the tank solution that overflows the original volume. Adjust replenishment level if/as needed to maintain consistent development.
 
I've always used 80ml after my first batch and found it more to my liking. I should say that I sometimes go a fairly long spell between development sessions and also that I keep my working XT-3R in a large 1 gal. Boston brown jug. I went from the norm of 70ml to 80ml and just felt a little safer. It seems to work just fine for me. Maybe I was just a little paranoid I don't know, but everything's seem fine to me . This batch is probably at least three years old and still going strong. I think if I was using it on a very regular bases I would have just stuck with 70ml, but I also use Pyrocat-HDC which makes my XT-3R get used a little less.
 
I have used X-tol replenished for several years with good result and also tried XT-3 at 1+1 dilution, also with good result. Does anyone know if XT-3 is so similar to X-tol that you can replenish an old X-tol solution with new XT-3 solution ?

Karl-Gustaf
 
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