Kodak Warning + Later Clarification

MCB18 said:

Kodak isn’t allowed to sell consumer film directly. They also aren’t allowed to sell motion picture film for stills use. There are a few exceptions, however. A few notable ones are CineStill Lomo and Fuji, and a few motion pictures spoolers that have specific contracts with Kodak that allow them to do this as a business. (Of course, that doesn’t stop folks from still buying motion picture film and respoolkng it regardless).

Basically:
EK sells KA Kodak branded film for distribution.
EK will sell film (as master rolls or pancakes) to other manufacturers under special conditions under contract.
EK sells Vision3 films to motion picture productions only, except for a few specific resellers.
EK will sell Aerocolor to anyone as long as you meet MOQ because that’s not a consumer film and they weren’t restricted from selling it (hence all the Aerocolor respools).

There are a few special exceptions, but that’s pretty much the whole picture.

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MY understanding is Eastman won;t sell their movie film to non-movie film producers just to stop the counterfeiting use for still photo film. You have to show you are a producer and I believe sign off on a statment that says you won/t convert it to still film use.

I also don't know why Cinestill and some others can do this against Alaris's distribution rights, though. Anyone know?

Alan Edward Klein said:

nderstanding is Eastman won;t sell their movie film to non-movie film producers just to stop the counterfeiting use for still photo film. You have to show you are a producer and I believe sign off on a statment that says you won/t convert it to still film use.

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Yes, this is correct, by contract Kodak can’t sell cinema film for stills use. This has been a part of the contract for over a decade, but Kodak turned a blind eye for a long time because it didn’t used to be a big issue.

Alan Edward Klein said:

I also don't know why Cinestill and some others can do this against Alaris's distribution rights, though. Anyone know?

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They have separate contracts with EK that allows them to buy film directly. I believe that KA no longer has exclusive distribution rights to stills film (if they ever did), but they do have the exclusive rights to the Kodak film brand*.

KA probably have a clause in their agreement that gives them the ability to tell EK who they can sell to and what they can sell them, which is why only a handful of companies are able to buy it from EK. Places like Adox or Astrum can absolutely chop up and finish a master roll of Ultramax, but they don’t have a contract so that won’t be happening.

*There are a few exceptions here but for the most part this is true.

Eastman Kodak was/is unwilling and unable to sell Vision stocks directly to Cinestill except under very specific conditions that made sure the film sold by Cinestill was very different than Kodak branded still film. Those conditions are/were:
1) Cinestill only bought the film in master roll volumes;
2) Initially, Cinestill was required to modify the film sold by them, by doing the remjet removal themselves. Subsequently, EK sold special versions of the film to Cinestill where the remjet had never been applied;
3) Cinestill has never been permitted to brand the film sold by them as Kodak film;
4) all film sold by Cinestill is a different emulsion, optimized for a different process, than any Kodak branded still film;
5) Cinestill attends to the edge printing and other steps involved with the finishing of the film, although there is at least a possibility that they may be using EK to do some of that. EK will do that for other entities and with other film, on a contract basis.
As I understand it, EK is still prohibited by contract from selling to anyone other than KA any film that is made to be sold as current Kodak branded still film.
EK has always been permitted to contract coat and finish other films for other parties. I expect entities like Lomo are able to get what is in essence slightly tweaked older, no longer made versions of films, for sale under their own name - never under the Kodak name.

MattKing said:

As I understand it, EK is still prohibited by contract from selling to anyone other than KA any film that is made to be sold as current Kodak branded still film.

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Except Canham’s custom sheet runs. Because that’s special I guess.

MCB18 said:

Lomo I don’t know, but from what I read CineStill bros are friends with a big wig at Kodak and so they got a very nice exclusivity deal for vision3 master rolls w/o remjet.

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Well... A big wing at EK shouldn't be able to break a contract with Alaris. In principle, EK doesn't need much persuasion to sell its products to a willing buyer.

MCB18 said:

As for other cine film sellers, it is my understanding that they buy rolls from real (or fake) production companies that buy a ton more film than they actually plan to use, and sell the extra film at a profitable price for them.

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That sounds like too obvious a loophole that it would have been mentioned in whichever agreement forbids EK from selling movie film as still film.

Alan Edward Klein said:

MY understanding is Eastman won;t sell their movie film to non-movie film producers just to stop the counterfeiting use for still photo film. You have to show you are a producer and I believe sign off on a statment that says you won/t convert it to still film use.

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Recently there were some articles written that were vilifying Kodak for "cracking down" on non-CineStill resellers of Vision 3 as still film. I remember lots of angry comments in various internet forums (not this one) about Kodak shooting itself in the foot and whatnot. But reading the details, if I recall correctly, all Kodak was doing was ask companies that claimed to be buying Vision 3 for a movie production to fill in a form with such onerous questions as "what's the name of the movie?" and "who is the producer?".

Don't quote me though. I didn't look into this in depth at the time, and my memory is fuzzy anyway.

EDIT:

https://petapixel.com/2025/02/04/why-kodak-is-cracking-down-on-respooled-motion-picture-film/

"Before getting into the situation at Reflx Lab, it is important to explain the situation quickly. The problem from Kodak’s perspective isn’t that its motion picture film is being respooled but rather how the respooler is acquiring said film. Kodak sells its motion picture film at two price points: one is for filmmakers who get a better deal because that industry is more susceptible to pricing changes and if the film price is too high, those filmmakers and studios may elect not to use film at all, which then would mean it is entirely possible that Kodak will no longer have enough volume to justify the price of production. In order to continue to allow filmmakers to keep using film, it is supporting the industry by keeping costs as low as possible.

...

Some companies are acquiring Kodak motion picture stock to respool but doing so without informing Kodak of that intended purpose, instead saying it is going to be used to produce movies. These companies are receiving the motion picture discount price and using that price difference to sell the respooled film at a lower price.
..."

dcy said:

Well... A big wing at EK shouldn't be able to break a contract with Alaris. In principle, EK doesn't need much persuasion to sell its products to a willing buyer.




That sounds like too obvious a loophole that it would have been mentioned in whichever agreement forbids EK from selling movie film as still film.

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I seems it is not just the forbidding to sell movie film as still film. It's that the movie film is still Kodak-branded film that when used as still film must be distributed by Alaris. I assume there's even Kodal imprinted on the emulsion of the movie film. Whereas Cinestill film made by Kodak has no Kodak labelling imprinted on the emulsion.

MCB18 said:

Except Canham’s custom sheet runs. Because that’s special I guess.

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No - that is Canham selling for Kodak Alaris.

From the Kodak Alaris website relating to Kodak film:

MattKing said:

No - that is Canham selling for Kodak Alaris.

From the Kodak Alaris website relating to Kodak film:
View attachment 406876

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Huh, never seen that site before

MCB18 said:

Huh, never seen that site before

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That is the Kodak Alaris site for film - it has been there for years.
The difference being that they renamed the web address - it used to include Alaris in the name.
Here is the link: https://www.kodakprofessional.com/

there's also something about EK not wanting to associate themselves to low-quality film finished by someone not trusted by them.
For example: you buy a reel of perfectly fine cine film, you spool it with a shitty device in shitty canisters. Your customers will get light leaks, streaks, all kinds of defects, with a nice "KODAK" imprinted on the border: "hey, this KODAK film is quite shitty", will be the instagram's caption of these pictures.
With cinestill, lomo, or even a reel you buy from kodak with no imprints there's no direct link with the producer.

MCB18 said:

Huh, never seen that site before

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You could also do it yourself (B&H):



Get 30 preorders (or $15k of your own money) then place an order.

Ektar is also listed on B&H but a 50 box MOQ and Portra 400 requires a 60 box minimum. These are all 5x7 or ULF sizes since in sheets 4x5 and 8x10 are covered by what is available off the shelf.

abruzzi said:

You could also do it yourself (B&H):

View attachment 407025

Get 30 preorders (or $15k of your own money) then place an order.

Ektar is also listed on B&H but a 50 box MOQ and Portra 400 requires a 60 box minimum. These are all 5x7 or ULF sizes since in sheets 4x5 and 8x10 are covered by what is available off the shelf.

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Ya know, I think I’m good!

Are there any active kodak employees here that can help me? Im a fedex employee and the company is trying to get rid of our pension and place us into a market cash balance plan that will be similar to yours and administered through metlife. Pretty big win for the company. Just trying to see how we're going to get hosed...Thanks for your help

captaincamera said:

Are there any active kodak employees here that can help me? Im a fedex employee and the company is trying to get rid of our pension and place us into a market cash balance plan that will be similar to yours and administered through metlife. Pretty big win for the company. Just trying to see how we're going to get hosed...Thanks for your help

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I don't work at Kodak but our organization offers us a pension and what they did over time was to create additional pension tiers that new employees enroll into. We're now onto Tier 6. When new employees join they get a choice of a 401k style plan or the pension. Since each tier number reduced the pension benefits a little more, a tier 6 pension is now roughly equivalent to the 401k option. I now mildly regret not having chosen the 401k option as it would have offered more flexibility for a similar payout. The employees who got in early on the pension made out very well.

If you're going to be placed into a 401k style stocks/bonds type of fund (or one that can be later converted into similar) where you have some control over the holdings, I recommend looking into concepts like the 3-fund-portfolio by Jack Bogle. Basically you'll want to own the whole market and hold it rather than be heavily weighted toward any one thing, and also keep expense ratios down. Average U.S. stock market growth has been 10% (7% inflation adjusted) per year so I wouldn't describe it at all as getting hosed.

loccdor said:

I don't work at Kodak but our organization offers us a pension and what they did over time was to create additional pension tiers that new employees enroll into. We're now onto Tier 6. When new employees join they get a choice of a 401k style plan or the pension. Since each tier number reduced the pension benefits a little more, a tier 6 pension is now roughly equivalent to the 401k option. I now mildly regret not having chosen the 401k option as it would have offered more flexibility for a similar payout. The employees who got in early on the pension made out very well.

If you're going to be placed into a 401k style stocks/bonds type of fund (or one that can be later converted into similar) where you have some control over the holdings, I recommend looking into concepts like the 3-fund-portfolio by Jack Bogle. Basically you'll want to own the whole market and hold it rather than be heavily weighted toward any one thing, and also keep expense ratios down. Average U.S. stock market growth has been 10% (7% inflation adjusted) per year so I wouldn't describe it at all as getting hosed.

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Ok tnx. This sounds almost exactly what they are doing here. Im tempted to choose the 401k for the flexibility, but coworkers have calculated the the ending amount 401k balance required to purchase an annuity (which is what is essentially done with the pension) and its a pretty high figure to achieve. Im also worried about the financial solvency of metlife or whoever the pension annuity will get passed off too in the future. I believe Taiwan pension system just had a mini crisis. No guarantees in life i guess...tnx

captaincamera said:

Are there any active kodak employees here that can help me? Im a fedex employee and the company is trying to get rid of our pension and place us into a market cash balance plan that will be similar to yours and administered through metlife. Pretty big win for the company. Just trying to see how we're going to get hosed...Thanks for your help

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Every company's plan is different. I would find a portal run by employees of FedEx, so you can get specific information about your situation. Also, the corporation should have issued some sort of brochure to explain much of this stuff.

Here's a commercial site that answers a lot of Fedex retirement questions. Note that there are options depending on what year you were hired. You can keep your old pension plan, apparantly. See Question 42:
Question 42: What options are available to employees who were hired before the 2020 deadline regarding their participation in FedEx's pension plans? This question requires an exploration of the distinctions between the new 401(k) plan and the legacy pension plan, detailing the eligibility criteria and benefits associated with each under the current economic conditions and retirement landscape.

Answer: Options for Pre-2020 Employees: Employees hired before 2020 have a choice to either continue with the original 401(k) plan and the pension plan or switch to the new 401(k) plan offering a higher company match. This choice allows for flexibility in retirement planning, catering to different financial needs and retirement timelines under the evolving economic conditions.

Alan Edward Klein said:

Every company's plan is different. I would find a portal run by employees of FedEx, so you can get specific information about your situation. Also, the corporation should have issued some sort of brochure to explain much of this stuff.

Here's a commercial site that answers a lot of Fedex retirement questions. Note that there are options depending on what year you were hired. You can keep your old pension plan, apparantly. See Question 42:
Question 42: What options are available to employees who were hired before the 2020 deadline regarding their participation in FedEx's pension plans? This question requires an exploration of the distinctions between the new 401(k) plan and the legacy pension plan, detailing the eligibility criteria and benefits associated with each under the current economic conditions and retirement landscape.

Answer: Options for Pre-2020 Employees: Employees hired before 2020 have a choice to either continue with the original 401(k) plan and the pension plan or switch to the new 401(k) plan offering a higher company match. This choice allows for flexibility in retirement planning, catering to different financial needs and retirement timelines under the evolving economic conditions.

FedEx's Top Pension Questions

www.theretirementgroup.com

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My employee group is under a union, and we're in negotiations right now. We'll have an option to choose. I don't think they gave that luxury to active employees. Our sad case is the company makes billions of dollars, while kodak went bankrupt and later more financial difficulties. I'll check that website. Thanks

captaincamera said:

coworkers have calculated the the ending amount 401k balance required to purchase an annuity (which is what is essentially done with the pension) and its a pretty high figure to achieve.

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People purchase annuities because they want guaranteed income in retirement. There is a reduction in expected returns in exchange for that guarantee. You don't need to go with your employer's choice of annuity provider (you can purchase your own privately), nor do you necessarily need to purchase an annuity at all - many people retire just using a 401k.

Another source of "guaranteed" income in retirement will be your social security payment. That is looked at similarly to pensions and annuities in terms of retirement planning. Before you make any decisions, you should calculate what your social security payments will be. If they're reasonably decent, I'd personally skip an annuity, but some people like them for peace of mind.

I think you'll get more comprehensive answers for your situation if you post your questions on the finacial forums at bogleheads.org. I don't want to get too off-topic here as this thread's about Kodak.

captaincamera said:

Ok tnx. This sounds almost exactly what they are doing here. Im tempted to choose the 401k for the flexibility, but coworkers have calculated the the ending amount 401k balance required to purchase an annuity (which is what is essentially done with the pension) and its a pretty high figure to achieve. Im also worried about the financial solvency of metlife or whoever the pension annuity will get passed off too in the future. I believe Taiwan pension system just had a mini crisis. No guarantees in life i guess...tnx

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See my last post. A 401K matching plan has FedEx adding its corporate contributions above your salary to your 401K. That's free money. In addition, you have complete control of the 401K. You're not dependent on the corporation or having to worry they may go bankrupt, as in a pension plan. The 401K money is being held in trust, not by FedEx but by a fiduciary investment firm. The money is in your name.

There seems to be an option if you started working before 2020 to get both a pension and 401K plan (without corporate contributions.) That sounds fairly attractive too, depending on the payouts. You need to speak to other employees and representatives who have examined all the details. We here don't know the plans being offered, and they are usually very complicated.

Thread locked for now - these pension advice issues are way out of bounds for Photrio!