Kodak Vision 3, soda and Rodinal 09: very dark negative

Hi APUG,

I got some Kodak Vision 3 500T film that I am testing, and I've just tried to cross-process my first test strip into black and white. I followed a method that I found online. The original poster said it worked, same film, same chems, but I got some really dark negs (they would be too white if reversed obviously). If I look through a strong light I can see pictures there, but otherwise the whole thing is too dark. It was not overexposed in camera, because the darkness is on the entire film including the perforation area. So here is a breakdown of everything you would need to know:

- Film tin received in mail, sealed. Opened in changing back and spooled a bit into a bulk loader in the darkbag, then from the bulk loader to the film canister. So I doubt the darkness was caused by any light leaks or the film being "kissed" by light, especially that the darkness is consistent.
- loaded into a Canon EF-M which gave an error. Unloaded in the dark back again.
- into an Olympus XA2, and shot about 10 frames.
- back into the changing back, cut the part which is shot, loaded into the developing tank and here comes processing:

- Sodium carbonate 1tbsp + 500ml hot water. dissolved. Poured into the tank and agitated. Left to stand for a few minutes, maybe 5.
this was to soften the remjet.
- Washed with slightly warm water.
- Poured in Rodinal 09 one-shot (1+100 solution), agitated and left to stand for one hour.
- poured out the developer, washed with water to stop development.
- poured in fixer (Ilford standard concentration) and left in there for a guesstimated 3-4 minutes (I wasn't precise at this step).
- poured fixer back in bottle, and washed with water.

Remjet stayed on the film, not a single bit dissolved in chems, but it came right off under the sink with the gentlest rub with my fingers. I am happy with remjet removal, but the negs are too dark.

So, what did I do wrong? Too much sodium carbonate and temperature? or too little fixer? or something else?

I haven't cross processed cine film in BW chemistry for over a year but if I remember correctly, the 200T that I processed with rodinal 1:100 back then way looked a little bit dark compared to a normal black and white negative but it still scanned pretty well. If your negative is too dark, the possible culprit is either the film is fogged, or you haven't completely removed the remjet. If you use soda to remove the remjet, it still has to be rubbed off; I run the film between my fingers while under the soda solution to remove it. In any case, I suggest re-fixing the negative and run it again in the soda solution to remove any remaining remjet. You can recheck the neg after that if it still looks dark.

Thanks for your reply pagonzales.

The remjet removal went fine. All of the remjet came off with no residue. Only the emulsion side is dark, while the shiny back is a bluish hue of gelatine film.

I'm gonna scan some today to test your theory. I actually looked at a light bulb through the film today. Usually, the bulb looks sharp but of course dim. Through this one, the bulb looked foggy.

I looked up some reasons for fogging, read a bit about silver halide crystallisation, and reexposure to light as a rememdy. I don't fully get it yet.

What will re-fixing do?

on the scanner, the negative is seen as almost completely white. Shifting the whitepoint in the levels setting all the way down helps a tiny little bit of image to appear.

I think is is properly darkened, not the kind which is scannable as you say. Also, what's with all those vertical lines?

When I have used Fomadon R09 and Kodak Vision stock I too have had very dark negatives. I did only develop two rolls of film, but I am sure with more experimentation the results might get better. I have had better success using other developers the first time round.

Thanks a lot for your input Oxleyroad.

I will keep trying to get it right with the developers I already have not to get observation data all over the place, and also to conserve my budget for now as well.

IDK anything about developing in rodinal, but I do a bit of Vision 3 5207 as ECN-2. To remove the remjet, after the carbonate prebath in step 1, thoroughly wash the film in your dev tank with several changes of warm water. Agitate briskly, almost violently. Shake and swirl and invert.

NO remjet will come off in the carbonate bath, but it will come off in the wash water. The first wash should be almost inky black when poured out.

When done processing I usually find just a slight residue of remjet that is easily removed by squeegeeing with your fingers.

YMMV, of course!

-- Jason