Kodak Type 523, GAF Hypan, and Graphic Film Pack Adapter

StoneNYC · Jul 14, 2013

Hey guys,

Since no one ever uses pictures to describe anything, I have a lot of trouble matching equipment to old film.

I want to clarify, do both this...

And this...

Go into this...?

I THINK so, but I just want to clarify.

I finally bought a 4x5 camera and this is some stuff a kind APUGer gave me to start out with like a year ago, it's been frozen since and while cleaning out a friends grandfathers house he found that film pack adapter and gave it to me and his grandfather had a camera and tons of negs (and some ektachrome) in 4x5 but no actual normal graflex holders just this.

Anyway can I use this with either of those films?

I want to practice my 4x5 developing on this old film first. I've had good results with expired film but he also had this...

And I'm used to Paterson tanks so I had planned to get a MOD54 but if I can learn to use this tank without spilling developer everywhere (doesn't seem to seal at all) then I'll stick to this and practice with the old film.

(PS anyone who has some extra and doesn't want it let me know).

Thanks for any knowledge on any of this.

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Tom1956 · Jul 14, 2013

That FR tank is a beast to use. It leaks out the top like a sieve. And everybody has a useless film pack adapter.Loading that FR is an art. It takes 12, but I'd highly recommend skippping every other one and doing 6. What you have here is a load of basically useless junk. But since you actually have a pack of film, knock yoursel out. Fifty years ago, this junk was omnipresent.

StoneNYC · Jul 14, 2013

Tom1956 said:
That FR tank is a beast to use. It leaks out the top like a sieve. And everybody has a useless film pack adapter.Loading that FR is an art. It takes 12, but I'd highly recommend skippping every other one and doing 6. What you have here is a load of basically useless junk. But since you actually have a pack of film, knock yoursel out. Fifty years ago, this junk was omnipresent.

Haha thanks Tom,

Yea I'll use the film, but I get the impression you think I should spend the money on the MOD54?

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Tom1956 · Jul 14, 2013

Don't know what a mod54 is. Right now Car 54 is on the TV, but don't know nuttin' about any mod54.

StoneNYC · Jul 14, 2013

Tom1956 said:
Don't know what a mod54 is. Right now Car 54 is on the TV, but don't know nuttin' about any mod54.

You have google right? Lol

It's a 4x5 film insert for a Paterson tank, it takes 6 sheets.

The new version is supposed to be ok with little slipped film (film that slops out of alignment).

Anyway what do you suggest for 4x5 development then?

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Tom1956 · Jul 14, 2013

I always used a tray. I do 1:1 on D-76, which means a tank gulps up a lot of expensive developer. Tanks may be fine if you do straight developer and replentisher, but I don't shoot enough to justify this.

StoneNYC · Jul 14, 2013

Tom1956 said:
I always used a tray. I do 1:1 on D-76, which means a tank gulps up a lot of expensive developer. Tanks may be fine if you do straight developer and replentisher, but I don't shoot enough to justify this.

It's only a liter of chemistry, Rodinal or HC-110 1L isn't a lot of chemical.

And I don't have a darkroom so it has to be a light tight tank...

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Tom1956 · Jul 14, 2013

Well, let us put it this way--an FR tank isn't noted as something that gives smooth even development. OK for a newspaper photographer in 1948, but not for you. And besides, pack film is as flimsey as wet toilet paper. It can even slip out of its grooves under agitation, causing a batch of stuck-together film. All you need is 2 or 3 trays and a closet.

StoneNYC · Jul 14, 2013

Tom1956 said:
Well, let us put it this way--an FR tank isn't noted as something that gives smooth even development. OK for a newspaper photographer in 1948, but not for you. And besides, pack film is as flimsey as wet toilet paper. It can even slip out of its grooves under agitation, causing a batch of stuck-together film. All you need is 2 or 3 trays and a closet.

Ok maybe I'll play with the FR tank since its "sturdier" for the flimsy film and use a MOD54 for the good film later on once I've gotten the hang of the camera.

I won't do tray, I can't put my hands in the chemistry as I have a bad reaction and gloves make it too hard so I guess that's my solution thanks for the details about the flimsy film, and confirming this is in fact the right holder for the job...

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

shutterfinger · Jul 14, 2013

Yes, the pack film pictured will work in the pictured film pack adapter. I do not know where you will find user instructions for them though. Basically you lay the pack in the holder with the tabs toward the opening, close the adapter, install the darkslide, pull the start paper tab moving the first sheet into place, expose, pull the next paper tab closest to the darkslide, until all sheets are exposed or rob the exposed sheets in total darkness. The exposed sheets will be at the back of the stack. http://www.graflex.org/helpboard/viewtopic.php?t=620

Pack film is very thin and therefore difficult/delicate to handle. It may fall out of the Mod 54 holder and I'm not sure it would stay in place in a Jobo 2509n reel in a 2500 tank either. Film that old will have a lot of base fog. I found HC110 @ 65°F to minimize base fog.

As for that FR/Yankee slosher tank make it into a planter. They are notorious for sloshing chemicals out during processing and uneven development.

StoneNYC · Jul 14, 2013

shutterfinger said:
Yes, the pack film pictured will work in the pictured film pack adapter. I do not know where you will find user instructions for them though. Basically you lay the pack in the holder with the tabs toward the opening, close the adapter, install the darkslide, pull the start paper tab moving the first sheet into place, expose, pull the next paper tab closest to the darkslide, until all sheets are exposed or rob the exposed sheets in total darkness. The exposed sheets will be at the back of the stack. http://www.graflex.org/helpboard/viewtopic.php?t=620

Pack film is very thin and therefore difficult/delicate to handle. It may fall out of the Mod 54 holder and I'm not sure it would stay in place in a Jobo 2509n reel in a 2500 tank either. Film that old will have a lot of base fog. I found HC110 @ 65°F to minimize base fog.

As for that FR/Yankee slosher tank make it into a planter. They are notorious for sloshing chemicals out during processing and uneven development.

So I can open the pack in daylight and install it? are you positive? I know other pack film can be opened in daylight but the instructions in the GAF pack say "install into holder in subdued light" so that usually means pitch black... though those instructions COULD be generic for all sheet film and might have not been changed for the pack film instructions... ?

So when you pull the tab, the exposed sheet gets pulled to the back and so only the paper gets pulled out? and then when you're done you take the holder into the dark and open it up and all the exposed sheets are inside? did I read that correctly?

I've successfully exposed nitrite film from 1947, I'm sure I can get an image from this, it's just all about learning how to use the camera and handle the sheets, the development techniques for old film I've pretty much got down pat as far as chemistry and adjusted exposure times etc.

It would be kind of cool to put my bonsai into this, I do need to put it in a new planter.... hmmm....

bdial · Jul 14, 2013

Yes, you can take the film pack out in the light. It has opaque paper sheet in front of the first frame. Full instructions are probably on the data sheet in the Kodak box, assuming it's still sealed.

If you've used Polaroid pack films, the concept is similar, except that you don't pull the exposed sheet out, the tab pulls it around the side of the pack and behind the unexposed sheets.

The film is the same thickness as roll film, and it's also slightly smaller than standard sheet film, the guides in the FR tank may be big enough to hold it, but it may not work with the mod 54. However, as stated, the FR tank has never had a very good reputation, so tray development may be the best.
Getting stuck in the dark with 16 sheets of loose film may not be an ideal time to find out they won't work in the FR tank Your bonsai may like it though.

It is possible to open the pack and remove the exposed frames, then put it back together and back into the holder, but you are probably better off using all the frames before processing.

I've got a few film packs to use one of these days, if I can just remember where my film pack adaptors are.

Tom1956 · Jul 14, 2013

StoneNYC said:
Ok maybe I'll play with the FR tank since its "sturdier" for the flimsy film and use a MOD54 for the good film later on once I've gotten the hang of the camera.

I won't do tray, I can't put my hands in the chemistry as I have a bad reaction and gloves make it too hard so I guess that's my solution thanks for the details about the flimsy film, and confirming this is in fact the right holder for the job...

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

A photographer with a skin condition to chemistry. That's too bad. Worse than a dog with an allergic condition to steak.

StoneNYC · Jul 14, 2013

Tom1956 said:
A photographer with a skin condition to chemistry. That's too bad. Worse than a dog with an allergic condition to steak.

I think it's my body's way of telling me this stuff should be handled with gloves, which is kind of obvious an photographers of old just didn't care enough. Lol

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

StoneNYC · Jul 14, 2013

bdial said:
Yes, you can take the film pack out in the light. It has opaque paper sheet in front of the first frame. Full instructions are probably on the data sheet in the Kodak box, assuming it's still sealed.

If you've used Polaroid pack films, the concept is similar, except that you don't pull the exposed sheet out, the tab pulls it around the side of the pack and behind the unexposed sheets.

The film is the same thickness as roll film, and it's also slightly smaller than standard sheet film, the guides in the FR tank may be big enough to hold it, but it may not work with the mod 54. However, as stated, the FR tank has never had a very good reputation, so tray development may be the best.
Getting stuck in the dark with 16 sheets of loose film may not be an ideal time to find out they won't work in the FR tank Your bonsai may like it though.

It is possible to open the pack and remove the exposed frames, then put it back together and back into the holder, but you are probably better off using all the frames before processing.

I've got a few film packs to use one of these days, if I can just remember where my film pack adaptors are.

Thanks, they can he had for $25 on eBay now that I know what I'm looking for, but you can always just send the packs over here instead

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Tom1956 · Jul 14, 2013

That's because photo chemicals are just not that poisonous for the most part. Some are, but mostly not.

JohnRichard · Jul 14, 2013

Those FR tanks generally scratch my negs. NOT GOOD, only on the edge, but still.

StoneNYC · Jul 14, 2013

Well it's all I've got guys... Anyhow, I've confirmed and installed the first pack, chose the GAF one, though now that I think about it I probably should have started with the Tri-x since in my experience GAF seems to age better. Anyway here's a video for anyone else who's never used one (posterity) you old guys will probably laugh at me knowing how easy it is and how specific I'm being about the little things but I think lots of people who've never seen this would not know each detail.

http://youtu.be/vN2eSbX9ab4

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Prof_Pixel · Jul 14, 2013

I used to use a lot of film packs with my 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 Speed Graphic back in the late '50s and early '60s. The film is much thinner than regular sheet film and at least in the 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 was BIGGER than the sheet film (I note that others have said the 4 x 5 version is smaller, IDK) I used to open them in the darkroom all the time to extract just the exposed sheets, but it's probably not a good idea for a first timer.

StoneNYC · Jul 14, 2013

I like it so far, I don't know why film packs weren't the standard and why sheet film is the main thing, seems a lot easier to bring 3 film packs somewhere than 15-20 film holders...

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Prof_Pixel · Jul 14, 2013

StoneNYC said:
I like it so far, I don't know why film packs weren't the standard and why sheet film is the main thing

Cost.

PE and I were just discussing film packs at lunch on Thursday at the George Eastman House. As I understand it, it turns out the US Military was the last major user of film packs.

Tom1956 · Jul 14, 2013

Plus pack film was thin and curly and hard to handle. Soon as you plop it in a tray of developer it curls up like crazy. And you need glass negative carriers because it's so thin.

StoneNYC · Jul 14, 2013

Prof_Pixel said:
Cost.

PE and I were just discussing film packs at lunch on Thursday at the George Eastman House. As I understand it, it turns out the US Military was the last major user of film packs.

Ahh, ok, fair enough (plus the thin sheet thing Tom said makes sense).

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

removed account4 · Jul 14, 2013

i can't tell from the photograph if hte FR tank is complete ...
there should be the lid, the 2 inserts that adjust the size of film
the LOADER ( this has a long slot in it that allows you to to slot by slot and more-easily load the film )
the bar that goes ontop of the film to make it so it doesn't rise out of the tank
the baffle ...

i use a FR tank mostly for stand development and have loaded every slot with the loader-thing.
it takes practice and isn't as easy as tray devlopment, but easier than unsticking sheets of film in a tray

i have read some use the FR tank and roll it slowly on a pencil and they get even development ..
as mentioned i usually use it for stand and semi stand and never have troubles ...

if you have allergies to developer, you might look into using sprint film developer, it is a METOL FREE d-76-type developer
i have used it off and on for 31years and it gives very nice results ... easy to mix ( 1:9 ) easy to use ( they have massive charts on their website for nearly every film you can think of )

and it is nearly impossible to over devlop/ blow highlights with it ... which might make ita great combination with the FR tank
seeing over agitation sometimes leads to blown highlights ...

good luck with the goodies !
john

StoneNYC · Jul 15, 2013

jnanian said:
i can't tell from the photograph if hte FR tank is complete ...
there should be the lid, the 2 inserts that adjust the size of film
the LOADER ( this has a long slot in it that allows you to to slot by slot and more-easily load the film )
the bar that goes ontop of the film to make it so it doesn't rise out of the tank
the baffle ...

i use a FR tank mostly for stand development and have loaded every slot with the loader-thing.
it takes practice and isn't as easy as tray devlopment, but easier than unsticking sheets of film in a tray

i have read some use the FR tank and roll it slowly on a pencil and they get even development ..
as mentioned i usually use it for stand and semi stand and never have troubles ...

if you have allergies to developer, you might look into using sprint film developer, it is a METOL FREE d-76-type developer
i have used it off and on for 31years and it gives very nice results ... easy to mix ( 1:9 ) easy to use ( they have massive charts on their website for nearly every film you can think of )

and it is nearly impossible to over devlop/ blow highlights with it ... which might make ita great combination with the FR tank
seeing over agitation sometimes leads to blown highlights ...

good luck with the goodies !
john

John, how can you tell if there's uneven development with your images lol, half the time I can't even tell what the image is...

Also sprint is terrible and doesn't allow for much control, hence why it's great for students, it's fool proof.

Anyway guys, I am fine and prefer a sealed container so I'm going with a MOD54 after the pack film is done.

I already wear a breather mask and chemical gloves and I like that method. Thanks.

Oh and yes it's complete, the pics are pretty clear, I showed everything on them, or tried.

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Kodak Type 523, GAF Hypan, and Graphic Film Pack Adapter

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