Kodak Supermatic Shutter Questions

[KN4SMF]

The shutter in my Kodak Medalist II is hopeless. It's just plain worn out. No matter what I do, I' can't stop the escapement from just zooming through its cycle. Close examination of the holes in the top plate of the escapement shows that the holes that the gear shafts go into are really wormed out. The gears wobble around as they turn. I'll bet my problem is that all this wobble just causes the gear teeth to de-mesh, and consequently the escapement just zooms through its cycle. Now thatIi've buttoned up the camera deeming it hopeless, I can't even say whether the holes in the baseplate are also wormed out. Most likely so.
So my question is if anybody knows if the escapement in the Supermatics, like the #3 are the same size as the escapement in the #2, Even though the body is a differnt size, allowing me to just rob the escapement parts out of it. One thing is for sure is that I have a very nice Medalist 2 camera with perfect glass that is totally useless.
Thank you.

 

[shutterfinger]

Do you have the Supermatic repair manual?
NO: go to https://www.butkus.org/chinon/repair_manuals/kodak_repair_books.htm and ask for a copy of the Flash Supermatic Shutters repair manual.
Camera model and size does not matter nor does the flash sync as the Flash Supermatic is the most complex and other variants are the same/similar in all other respects.
I have serviced several #2 and 1 #3 Supermaric with the linked service manual. The build is the same but the size of the parts are different between sizes.
Your problem may be sticky levers, not worn shafts and bushings. New bushings can be machined or old ones shimmed.

 

[KN4SMF]

Thanks. There are no bushings. The gear shafts are set in nothing but holes drilled in the top and bottom brass plates. There's no levers. Extremely simple arrangement. 2 gears, a star wheel and a pallet with a small hairpon spring applying a small amount of pressure of the pallet into the star wheel. I'm fact the whole mechanism is disappointing in it's basic simplicity.

 

[shutterfinger]

Close examination of the holes in the top plate of the escapement shows that the holes that the gear shafts go into are really wormed out. The gears wobble around as they turn. I'll bet my problem is that all this wobble just causes the gear teeth to de-mesh, and consequently the escapement just zooms through its cycle.

If you have not removed the top plate, cocked and released the shutter you have no idea what is wrong and are shooting yourself in the foot.
The Supermatic will cock and release with the top plate off and gear train exposed. It will operate on Bulb until you operate the B&T levers manually.
My search shows the Medalist II to use a #2 Flash Supermatic. I have seen very worn Supermatics operate at some speeds when properly cleaned and lubed.

 

[KN4SMF]

I'm talking about the small brass top plate of the escapement gears. It has a couple holes for the gear shafts to go into and screw holes in either end to hold the plate to the studs in the shutter baseplate. The gear shaft holes are gouged out so that the gear shafts wobble as they turn. in fact, one hole is even oblonged a bit. I can't inagine how use and wear can do this unless somebody used the camera to take 10 to the 25th exposures. And I can't imagine why anybody would gouge the holes out with some little tool. But one thing is for sure is that the escapement gear and pallet assembly just zooms through. There is no 1 second, 1/2 second, 1/4.... They're all fast. I think the holes are so womed out, the ultra-fine teeth in the 2 gears just go out of mesh with all that wobbling and the whole thing just zips right through its cycle.

 

[shutterfinger]

I would remove the delay assembly top plate, place it on an anvil, and using a drive or pin punch peen the holes so that the shafts fit properly. Likely heavy use and run dry in need of a CLA caused the wear.
A #2 Supermtic should not be that hard to find to rob parts from even if its a working one.

 

[KN4SMF]

Now why didn't I think of that? I had fooled with assembling and disassembling that thing 40 leven times. Standing on one foot, patting my head, saying chants... Everything. But that dadgum escapement assembly just zipped through every time. Not even slow enough for me to hear the characteristic buzzing sound but a microsecond.I could see the little palatte was engaging but went so fast I couldn't even see it going back and forth. I know i'm not inconpetent or ignorant, but that one sure made me wonder what I could be missing. But what could I be missing? The mechanism was just too simple. But I noticed how incredibly fine the gear teeth were, so surmised the wallowed out holes were allowing the gear teeth to just skip mesh so much the whole escapement would go "zip" faster than the 3-letter word can desctibe it.Crazy.

 

[Jim Jones]

A clock repairman may have the expertise to swage the holes in the top plate so the gears mesh properly. After all, that part of the shutter is merely clockwork. If incorrectly done, you'll have an even more difficult repair job to do than now.

 

[shutterfinger]

Use a number drill bit a few thousands smaller than the shaft to true the hole. Measure the shaft with a digital caliper and check for even roundness. Swedge on the elongated side or center on a enlarged but even round hole. Light taps should do it.

Now why didn't I think of that?

That's why I put stuff aside for a few days and come back to it later.

 

[KN4SMF]

I do not have the tools or financial means to do this job right. I may as well sell the camera and find another. I've put off doing it because the lens is so perfect. If I bought another camera, I'll surely end up with "cleaning marks" (SCRATCHES!). Finding a #2 Supermatic would be a chore and a waiting game where I've no more patience. Besides, if the top plate is wallowed out, then the baseplate probably is too. It's a shame that Kodak built such a nice camera with such a cheap-ass escapement assembly. They should have used bushings or jewels. This is crap. I mentioned elongated hole. But more than being elongated, it almost looks like some boob gouged out the hole. But why would anybody have done that? It's a Medalist II, so I know it didn't get used in WWII shooting 10 gazillion pictures on an aircraft carrier. I had seen postings by shutterfinger before, warning of using cameras in bad need of CLA. If this is one of them, let me testify that if that was the true cause, he was right. This thing is totally trashed. When those 2 gears are running while I watch them under a magnifier, those gear shafts bobble aroud like somebody machined it with a pocket knife.

 

[Chuck1]

A supermatic shutter specific to a kodak medalist, could it be cocked by hand (for use on a lensboard) or it was designed with linkages ( to be cocked by winding the film advance)

 

[Hunter_Compton]

Chuck, I'm not sure if that was a question, but the Supermatic found in the Medalist I and II does not have an external cocking lever, it has a linkage on the back of the housing that engages with a lever in the body which is coupled to the film advance.

If you want a similar lens, I would suggest the similar 105mm f/3.7 often found in an external cocking Supermatic for use on speed graphics and similar. This lens uses Fred Altman's Heliar formula like the Medalist's 100mm.

 

[Chuck1]

Thank you

 

[Dan Daniel]

A supermatic shutter specific to a kodak medalist, could it be cocked by hand (for use on a lensboard) or it was designed with linkages ( to be cocked by winding the film advance)

LInkages coming from the backside of the lens tube.

The cell spacing for the Medalist lens groups is the same as on other Supermatic shutters. Buy a 127mm Ektar and install the Medalist Ektar on it. Use tape to draw the aperture scale.