Kodak Supermatic No.1 Ektar 101mm 4.5 parts?

[peter k.]

3 Q's

#1: Are there any other lenses, which may have parts that can be swapped with this lens? (Image#4)
#2: Would perhaps a Grapfic #1 Supermatic work? But it only opens up to an f/ stop of 6.8, where this one goes to 4.5! (Except for this, and the cover , they look identical to me, but the guts must be different as it only goes to 6.8.)
#3: Is the mechanism perhaps just worn out?
I guess you could only tell by opening it up, but then I would have no understanding if what I was looking at was to worn out or not!
Thanks for any help.

Background:
I acquired this lens, and was informed that it had been opened some time before and there was some "damage to two of the blades on their tips."
Looking at it with the front and back with the glass off, could can see nothing wrong.
So cocked it and triggered it several times, about eight, and it worked fine. Then it got stuck, when I tried firing it @ 400. Looking carefully (Image #1&3) you can see the stuck blade, it seems to have rotated to far, and the back end of it got stuck on the housing plate. I gently pushed this edge down, with the point of tooth pick and it ... ah finished its sequence, but was sitting wide open.
So re-cocked it, and fired it again twice, with no problem.

Image #1 Showing Front side of suck blade

#2 Backside of stuck blade

#3 Front side again at more of an angle.

#4 de lens

 

[shutterfinger]

Aperture is a ratio of entrance pupil to lens focal length. The entrance pupil is measured looking through the lens front.
A lens put in a shutter with a aperture scale for a different lens will have an incorrect aperture scale.

The shutter you have pictured has the shutter blades installed in incorrect order.
Supermatic shutters use 6 blades.
A Supermatic shutter is a Supermatic shutter regardless of whether it says Kodak or some other company.

Complete manual $$.

 

[peter k.]

Hmmm thanks for the clarity on question #2, there is a Supermatic 1 on the bay, and that was what I was referring to without the glass lenses,front or back, but this evidently would not work.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Kodak-Sup...291401?hash=item5d6b3061c9:g:NxgAAOSwSHZWfv8k
I'm in the process of researching what I can find on the web for manual ect.. Butkus has one but its not very detailed.
I find it fascinating that it would work at all with the blades installed in the incorrect manner.

 

[shutterfinger]

I find it fascinating that it would work at all with the blades installed in the incorrect manner.

Wrong starting point or wrong sequence may work some but not correctly all the time at any speed.
That shutter you linked to is pricey.

The cover of the manual pages in my previous post.

don't matter what camera they are found on. i've used one manual to service several supermatics with different lens, only very minor differences if any at all.

the difference between a flash supermatic and a supermatic is that the supermatic has a big empty space where the flash sync delay would be, no delay setting lever, and no flash contacts.

 

[peter k.]

Dang that's the one I got, same number 1490 A, but it doesn't show the page you have in post #2
Mine has 13 pages, does yours have more.

 

[shutterfinger]

Assembly starts on page 13 and completes on page 14.
Although yours appears correct in your picture #4 with the lens in place a blade is installed incorrectly, bent, or other mechanism is incorrect.
Another possibility is a pivot pin is badly worn or its mount hole is badly worn.
Hold the cocking lever and trip on T releasing slowly until mid cycle and gently check the blades for excessive play, more than .5mm.

 

[peter k.]

I'll have to check my download on that manual.. maybe didn't print it all.
Wow.. doing what you stated, I could see the two bent tips.
.
Ok so need to look for a parts lens.

 

[peter k.]

So it can be any Supermatic, even though they may not have the same aperture settings, they should have the same number of blades and and pivot pin sizes and the mechanism that operates them open and closed.
I can't believe there is anyway to 'beef' the pivot area on the blade or the holder, if that where the trouble, is there?

 

[shutterfinger]

Wow.. doing what you stated, I could see the two bent tips.

I would remove the blades and straighten them with the flat section of a pair of miniature needle nose pliers.

I can't believe there is anyway to 'beef' the pivot area on the blade or the holder, if that where the trouble, is there?

Portra sheet film unprocessed makes good shutter blades.
120 film exposed to bright light for 5 minutes, processed or not, should make good repair material. Put it on the side that keeps the blade in its original position. This may not work for the tips as blade thickness may be critical.
A #1 Supermatic should be the same regardless of lens mounted in it. Sometimes the extra width of the aperture opening in the shutter is blocked by a aperture lever pin to prevent one from opening the lens wider than the aperture the lens will preform at, other times it remains unmarked.

 

[peter k.]

Portra sheet film unprocessed makes good shutter blades.
120 film exposed to bright light for 5 minutes, processed or not, should make good repair material.

Wooo... hahaahh ahha .. use it to shoot, and use it to repair.

Put it on the side that keeps the blade in its original position.

Don't understand! Hmmm thinking about it, do you mean to cut a small piece of Portra,clearing all moving parts,and insert it, on the side of the blade that is hanging up on the inner circle of the mechanism plate?
Yes .. that makes sense, and it would be kept in place by the backing plate that holds the blades in their proper position.
I'll be darn.. if I'm correct .. what a way to solve the problem.. how creative, more than two thumbs up!
Ha.. very neat.

A #1 Supermatic should be the same regardless of lens mounted in it.

So it doesn't have to be a 101mm? It can be a 127 ect?
That would be great, then one wouldn't have to be so specific.

 

[Dan Fromm]

Hmm. I have 101/4.5 Ektars in Supermatics and have seen and handled 127/4.7 Ektars in Supermatics. The 101s are in smaller shutters than the 127s. And the 127s' shutters' tubes are larger (greater IDs) than the 101s'. I seriously doubt that the two sizes have many parts in common.

 

[peter k.]

Update:
This is a great learning experience.. its only the second lens I have worked on, and like the first, have had nothing to lose, as this one was a given.

Ok took it apart and straightened the two blades tips.. also changed swapped, the one that was hanging up, and put as the last standard blade #5 .. so that it would be nested between #1 blade and the 6th. Didn't help, as the it again got stuck with a different blade. So it must be the holder and not the pivot pin of the blade. The lens is just worn out.
So will see if we come across one around and about.. not important.. but a lot of fun learning the ins and outs.
Thanks Shutterfinger for your help and the opportunity for humor.. and Dan.. that makes allot of sense, have never really focused on the lens themselves, just being using them, and setting them for the picture.

BTW there were 25 pages on that manual.. Printed the rest of them out, now have a complete manual.

 

[peter k.]

Received a shutter today.. with no glass, and will call it 'Shutter B'. Thereby calling the lens in of our our original post, .. 'Lens A', for clarity in this discussion.

Shutter B is also a NO.1 Surpermatic, and glass from Lens A, screws in easily, so all is well there.
But Shutter B is a slightly different model, as it does not a have a button. (Refer to the #4 image in post #1)
I thought this activated the delayed action, but now not sure!
Also the diaphragm control ring on Shutter B, does not twist on clockwise and then locked in place by a retaining screw, as in Lens A! Instead the control ring on Shutter B, is placed on a 'point' were the retaining screw is on lens A, under the name Kodak, and is held in place instead by the lens itself when it is screwed in, and thus locks it in place.



Found this interesting. So this must be an older shutter. When I first tried it, it would not cock and firer, so I took it apart just far enough to expose the mechanism. The cover plate is different, but the main mechanism looks the same.

Shutter B Compared to Lens A

Lens A

Shutter B, when taken apart, as shown in the above image, would now cock and firer, and realized that the delayed action winding lever was most likely not in its proper position. So put Shutter B, back together again, and tested it. It worked, but is slow to about a stop + when tested for speed. So will have to take it all apart and do a CLA, if I want to use this Shutter B, rather than the one with the button on Lens A.

Most likely the parts I need to replace Lens A are within Shutter B, but Lens A has that funny button that I have no idea what it actual function is for now! Shutter B also has the same adjustment for setting the delay, but no button. On Shutter B, it is not functioning properly at this time, it starts to wind down, but stops before it firers.

So at last the questions.
1) What the heck is that button on Lens A suppose to do?
2) Are the interior parts, the blade controller, the 6 actual blades, the mechanism plate that they are attached to, interchangable between these two?
3) Which is the better model of the NO.1 Surpermatic A or B?

Thanks for your help and more clarity.

Edit: Boy just flashing back between the two images of Shutter B, and Lens A, one can see the difference in the blade tips in each and where they are aligned... Lens A must have really been used alot!

 

[Dan Fromm]

That button is a blade arrestor. Cock the shutter, hold the button down, fire the shutter. The shutter will stay open until recocked. For focusing.

 

[peter k.]

HA.. thank you...
So Dan.. which one to repair A or B?

 

[shutterfinger]

I has never sees a Supermatic like shutter B. I's suspect its off a folder or similar special adaptation.
The internals at the flash delay are totally different from any Supermatic for large format lens I have come across.
I would cannibalize shutter B and fix shutter A.

 

[peter k.]

Ok finally had time to work on it.. and used parts from Shutter B to fix Lens A.. speeds are good except for 400, so have a few questions, before I take it apart again.
~How often on these older lens can you get the faster speeds to work correctly?
~Cleaned the blades from Shutter B, although they didn't look like they needed anything done to them, and rubbed graphite on both sides using a Q tip... somewhere in the archives I read, that using the flat edge on a pencil, on the blades, would actually work better. Is this true?
Thanks for any help or suggestions..

 

[shutterfinger]

If all is good through 200 then call it good and go shoot it.
Typical is 100 in tolerance, 200 half stop slow, 400 one stop slow; heavy usage/neglected/run till it stopped 100 half a stop slow, 200 a stop slow, 400 one and a half to two stop slow.
If you have to have 400 in tolerance then make a new booster spring and possibly a new cocking spring. There is likely enough wear that new springs won't help.

 

[peter k.]

That makes sense, can't remember the last time I took a shoot over 200 and rarely at that.
Thanks, instead of working on it, been wanting to try it out. So the funny shutter panned out. Not bad for a $15 investment, including shipping, made out like a bandit on this lens.