Kodak Retina Lens Swap?

[AZD]

Does anyone know whether the lens/shutter assemblies can be interchanged between the various late folding Retinas? For clarity, I do mean the whole thing, not just the removable front elements.

This is what gets me thinking: I have a good user Ib with a 2.8 Xenar (“Tessar”). There’s a IIIC locally. The rangefinder is badly crazed/hazed/delaminated or whatever, but the 2.0 Xenon (“Planar”) is in good condition. Might make a cool hybrid. I have the tools and skillset to make such a swap.

It seems likely that all would fit since both lenses are in Synchro Compur shutters, but I don’t know for sure.

The Ib is a great hiking/travel camera that will fit in a jacket pocket, and scale focus doesn’t bother me. A little practice and anyone can be pretty accurate. An extra stop of speed would be welcome.

 

[BobD]

Wouldn't it be easier to swap out the rangefinder on the IIIc with a working one? I do see such parts for sale on eBay from time to time.

 

[AZD]

Possibly, but that would mean buying two bad cameras, and still always wondering… of course I’d have two f2 lenses then.

 

[Dan Fromm]

Have you measured back focus of the two lenses when focused at infinity?

 

[shutterfinger]

Are both shutters working properly or does one or both need a CLA?
The front and rear cells should interchange between the two shutters then infinity focus and the scale can be changed to match the different focal length.
EDIT:
The Ib uses a CS-1110-337 Special shutter with the base repair and lube based on a CN-1110-000 shutter.
The IIc uses a CS-1110-340 special shutter and is based on the CN-1110-000 shutter.
The IIIc uses a CS-1110-338 special shutter and based on the CN-1110-000 shutter.
The "Special Shutter" is the faceplate and control couplings such as cocking and release.
Lens cells will interchange between all 3 models but the shutters will not interchange.
See: https://learncamerarepair.com/downloads/pdf/Compur-Factory-Shutter-Repair-Manual.pdf for more info.

 

[AZD]

Interesting, I wondered if that might be the case. The Compur shutter body seems to be more or less standardized over a wide range of applications, though you never know what you’ll see until you see it. The Compur manual says both are based on the CN-1110-000 model.

The shutter in the Ib is great, I worked on it last year. IIIC was a bit sluggish. Easy enough to fix.

 

[shutterfinger]

The CN-1110-000 is a work horse. It was used in the majority of cameras with modifications including Rolleiflex/Rolleicord.

 

[AZD]

The CN-1110-000 is in my Ikoflex Favorit TLR as well.

Well, it sounds like a definite maybe. Probably not worth pursuing for now as I have plenty of other projects, and really the 2.8 Xenar is a fine lens. Maybe one day…

 

[flavio81]

Does anyone know whether the lens/shutter assemblies can be interchanged between the various late folding Retinas? For clarity, I do mean the whole thing, not just the removable front elements.

This is what gets me thinking: I have a good user Ib with a 2.8 Xenar (“Tessar”). There’s a IIIC locally. The rangefinder is badly crazed/hazed/delaminated or whatever, but the 2.0 Xenon (“Planar”) is in good condition. Might make a cool hybrid. I have the tools and skillset to make such a swap.

It seems likely that all would fit since both lenses are in Synchro Compur shutters, but I don’t know for sure.

The Ib is a great hiking/travel camera that will fit in a jacket pocket, and scale focus doesn’t bother me. A little practice and anyone can be pretty accurate. An extra stop of speed would be welcome.

Most likely cells will just fit in. However, the 50/2 lens is matched to the exact width of the shutter (which has sample variation). And of course front cell is matched to back cell, that's why they have serial numbers.

So your best bet is to repair/replace the rangefinder on the camera that has the f2 lens.

 

[removedacct1]

The C type Schneider cells are interchangeable between cameras that use C type lenses: the 1b/1B, IIIc/IIIC/IIc/IIIC types. However, the front and rear groups are carefully matched, so you must transfer both the front AND rear cells if you put them on another Retina. However, do NOT attempt to put Rodenstock cells on a camera fitted with Schneider lenses, and vice versa: the lens tubes in the shutters are different sizes for the two different brands.

Furthermore, if you want to swap the whole shutter assembly, you need a spanner tool to get the retaining ring off, and without the proper tool, this is a nearly impossible task. And herein lies a problem with the idea of swapping lens cells into a different C type shutter: there are shims between the rear of the shutter and the ring that both positions the shutter and provides linkage to the rangefinder, and these shims are there to achieve accurate focus. There are different number/size of shims on every camera, so that the shutter/lens combo is perfectly focused on that camera. If you move a lens set from one camera to another, there is no guarantee that you will achieve 100% correct focus, because you are not moving the focus correcting shims along with the lens cells.

 

[reddesert]

I think if you're okay with using scale focus, why not just use the IIIc with the bad finder as-is? Trying to swap the lens into the Ib body gives you, at best, a little bit smaller body, but more possibly, two Retinas that don't focus correctly.

IMO if one is scale focusing, there is an incentive to stop down a little for depth of field, and the advantages of an f/2.0 lens become modest. Relatively few scale focus cameras come with fast lenses, for several reasons.

 

[Kodachromeguy]

And herein lies a problem with the idea of swapping lens cells into a different C type shutter: there are shims between the rear of the shutter and the ring that both positions the shutter and provides linkage to the rangefinder, and these shims are there to achieve accurate focus. There are different number/size of shims on every camera, so that the shutter/lens combo is perfectly focused on that camera. If you move a lens set from one camera to another, there is no guarantee that you will achieve 100% correct focus, because you are not moving the focus correcting shims along with the lens cells.

Would not each lens have been tested for exact focal length (possibly by the manufacturer) and then individually calibrated for the Retina body in which it was mounted? Recall, Some Leitz lenses (like my 50mm ƒ/2 Summicron-DR) have a tiny number inscribed, which indicates the focal length in mm to 2 decimal places. The glass unit is specifically mated to a helical unit. You can't just swap out glass and expect it to focus properly at all distances.

 

[shutterfinger]

In post #5 I stated the lens cells would interchange between the shutters. This is based on the shutter's lens threading and fixed cells.
Front focus lens will be far more complex to change and the rangefinder coupling changed as well.
According to A Lens Collectors Vade Mecum the Schneider Xenar is a Tessar design and was made in many focal lengths and various apertures from the mid 1920's onward.
The Xenon on the other hand is a trade name applied to a Triplet on pre war Retinas, and a Gauss of 6 and 7 glass designs. The Xenon was introduced in the mid 1920's also. In later years there were 7 and 8 glass versions.
Early Retina versions were marked 5cm with later versions marked 50mm.

 

[removedacct1]

Would not each lens have been tested for exact focal length (possibly by the manufacturer) and then individually calibrated for the Retina body in which it was mounted? Recall, Some Leitz lenses (like my 50mm ƒ/2 Summicron-DR) have a tiny number inscribed, which indicates the focal length in mm to 2 decimal places. The glass unit is specifically mated to a helical unit. You can't just swap out glass and expect it to focus properly at all distances.

Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. That’s why every shutter on these late model Retinas have metal and/or paper shims between the mount and the shutter to precisely calibrate focus for the camera body it’s on. That is how Kodak AG “calibrated” the lens + shutter to fit the camera its mounted to. Remember, Compur made the shutters, which Kodak AG bought for their camera bodies, so there was no way for Schneider/Compur to calibrate focus until Kodak AG placed them on a body. It had to be done in the assembly process.

 

[shutterfinger]

Lens are rarely their marked focal length. Due to production tolerances any given focal length can be 1mm to 5mm either side of the marked focal length with 3mm or less the most common.

 

[albada]

Lens are rarely their marked focal length. Due to production tolerances any given focal length can be 1mm to 5mm either side of the marked focal length with 3mm or less the most common.

No kidding! I once tested some lenses, including a Xenon (marked 50mm) and a Cassar (marked 45 mm). The Cassar was a German triplet made through the 1950s and was often mounted on lower-end rangefinder and viewfinder cameras such as those from Iloca and Wirgin. Well, based on scene-area on the negative, the Cassar was a trifle longer than the Xenon, despite being marked 5mm shorter.

Mark Overton