Kodak Reintroduces Ektachrome.

railwayman3 · Jan 6, 2017

Chris Livsey said:
Can I interject a dose of reality?

Processing and digitizing a film cartridge should cost around $50 to $75.
http://petapixel.com/2016/01/06/kod...per-8-as-a-film-camera-with-digital-features/

For 3-4 minutes of movie ? ! How many "ordinary" users are going to pay that, when they can shoot hours of digital for a few pence ? Like it or not, it's the mass buyers of equipment who need video of their daughter's wedding, kid's parties, summer hols, etc., and they are just not going to consider this. Like vinyl, super-8, and projected slides, are now (and will always be) specialist fields. (I write as an analogue, slide and vinyl user and enthusiast).

chromacomaphoto · Jan 6, 2017

There's a decent enough Kodak podcast that goes into detail on a lot of this stuff (there was a great one a while back about the 8mm reintroduction) called the Kodakery.
As for this news re Ektachrome, I feel happy and generally positive about it. I wonder if this will make Fuji reconsider it's discontinuations at all?

NortheastPhotographic · Jan 6, 2017

Hah! You should see what dev/transfer of a Super 8 reel costs NOW! Seriously go look at Pro8mm's pricing for Super 8 packages to HD. It's well over a hundred bucks. This actually represents a massive reduction in costs of which I will take advantage. I have a Canon 814 Electronic and a Nikon R8 that both make beautiful films.

As for 'ordinary users', I would argue these don't exist in Super 8. Of course it's for everyone from curious creatives to working professionals on special projects. For mom and pop? Nah. But I think Kodak knows that. Now, SOME wealthy new Mom's and Pop's do pay our studio to occasionally create Super 8 films for them, and in that context I'll pay 75 bucks a roll for a quality transfer for HD, which I will edit in Final Cut and deliver digitally. It's a unique way to make a family film for people seeking something nostalgic. This is a reaction against everything being so easy, sharp, and clinical IMO.

flavio81 · Jan 6, 2017

Chris Livsey said:
Apologies for cross posting on another thread but I suspect the Mods. are merged out.
(duplicate post self deleted)

All those looking for the "old" film to re-emerge are going to be either thrilled with the "improvements" or bitterly disappointed "it isn't what it was":

Over the next 12 months, Kodak will be working to reformulate and manufacture KODAK EKTACHROME Film for both motion picture and still photography applications.

So talk of "bringing back a classic" means the name.

The reformulation will have been probably due to sustainable chemical availability that is environmentally allowed and given the time gap from the previous formulation no doubt differences in the way the crystals are grown these days and the progress in dye couplers.

I am going to give my opinion based on what i've learned from past postings done by PE:

When you want to coat an emulsion on a different coater type (than what it was originally designed for), you need to tweak or reformulate or even re-engineer the emulsion.

I suspect that Kodak is aware that production needs to be done now at a smaller scale, and this new Ektachrome E100 is going to be coated at a smaller-scale coater.

Thus the need for reformulating/reengineering the emulsion*

Which is good news because it means they could in the future take the extra effort to do the same with the other nice films (i.e. Portra) and make their production sustainable in the future.

As for the dissapointed you imply when you indicate "'bringing back a classic' means the name", yes, it's true, but at the same time this is Kodak, you can rest assured the new emulsion will be as good as the former emulsion*

(*) In the same way as when they had to modify (or reformulate?) Plus-X and Tri-X (and rename it 125PX and 400TX) when it was moved to a different coater years ago. The reformulation gave significantly finer grain, if i recall correctly.

Agulliver · Jan 6, 2017

Count me as an "ordinary" user of super 8. I am not a pro, I don't even exhibit at film festivals. I make films for my own enjoyment and to keep family memories. My super 8 use has dwindled as the prices have gone up...but I've never stopped. If I can buy a roll of the new Ektachrome without processing included I can process it myself, have it processed fairly locally when funds allow and I am not especially interested in scanning.

That said, the idea is that Kodak want to get aspiring pro film makers an easier, more accessible way to try film than 16mm. They haven't really had a strategy for marketing or promoting super 8 for a long time. They did a bit of promotion in the early 2000s (first time since Photokina '86 I believe) but their strategy for actually finding a solid market hs been nonexistant. The idea is to get Spielberg, Whedon et al to back the project and to say how super 8 is a great intro.

The need for a new super 8 camera comes about becasue there's been no production for something like 30-35 years...and the number of working camearras is dwindling. Pro's don't want a 1970s home movie camera on which 80% of the features work...

But even I might buy the new super 8 camera with it's built in video assist and audio recording capability. THe suggested price is quite attractive, and it will come with a warranty and promise of spare parts avalability...something that cannot be said for my Elmo, Nizo, Chinon and Beaulieu...

With 35mm, there are still literally millions of working cameras out there and a few sitll in production. As they were still mainstream 10 years ago (rather than 35-40) it's still possible to find working 35mm camears at all price points and to repair most, albeit at a cost.

flavio81 · Jan 6, 2017

railwayman3 said:
For 3-4 minutes of movie ? ! How many "ordinary" users are going to pay that, when they can shoot hours of digital for a few pence ? Like it or not, it's the mass buyers of equipment who need video of their daughter's wedding, kid's parties, summer hols, etc., and they are just not going to consider this. Like vinyl, super-8, and projected slides, are now (and will always be) specialist fields. (I write as an analogue, slide and vinyl user and enthusiast).

Super-8 has survived despite, yes, video and digital video cameras having been available for decades.

Kodak is not targeting "ordinary" users when trying to promote Super-8. They are targeting to the enthusiasts, as explained above.

BTW, If Kodak scales down their whole still camera film production, and starts (finally) targeting we the enthusiasts, this could make all Kodak film products sustainable for the years to come.

Ai Print · Jan 6, 2017

flavio81 said:
BTW, If Kodak scales down their whole still camera film production, and starts (finally) targeting we the enthusiasts, this could make all Kodak film products sustainable for the years to come.

They have been targeting enthusiasts & pros as well which is just as important since often the resulting work is much better and gets featured in many more places outside of Kodak's marketing scope, inspires enthusiasts to make work the caliber of the pros. Kodak's marketing is much better than it used to be and is in the form of social media which is highly effective.

If anyone is expecting target marketing to be in print ads or prime time TV commercials they will be disappointed because film use will always be uber niche and neither of those outlets is very effective use of marketing funds in such a niche.

This announcement from Kodak went viral very quickly and that was 100% due to social media, highly effective marketing.

flavio81 · Jan 6, 2017

Ai Print said:
They have been targeting enthusiasts & pros as well which is just as important since often the resulting work is much better and gets featured in many more places outside of Kodak's marketing scope. Kodak's marketing is much better than it used to be and is in the form of social media which is highly effective.

If anyone is expecting target marketing to be in print ads or prime time TV commercials they will be disappointed because film use will always be uber niche and neither of those outlets is very effective use of marketing funds in such a niche.

This announcement from Kodak went viral very quickly and that was 100% due to social media, highly effective marketing.

Yes but they still lag (in marketing) compared to Ilford or Ferrania or Adox. I mean, this (APUG) is one of the prime forums for analog enthusiasts, and we never had the equivalent of a Simon Galley (Ilford) or Mirko (Adox) or Dave Bias (Ferrania) to talk to us and engage us. It feels as we've never been heard by them.

It is not enough to just post some simple updates on a Facebook page.

Ai Print · Jan 6, 2017

flavio81 said:
Yes but they still lag (in marketing) compared to Ilford or Ferrania or Adox. I mean, this (APUG) is one of the prime forums for analog enthusiasts, and we never had the equivalent of a Simon Galley (Ilford) or Mirko (Adox) or Dave Bias (Ferrania) to talk to us and engage us. It feels as we've never been heard by them.

It is not enough to just post some simple updates on a Facebook page.

Yes, it is enough since this forum represents a scant fraction of the actual film using base, they are reaching out to and engaging with plenty of present and future customers on social media.

Also, this has been discussed before but there have been people like Colleen Krenzer who have spoken on Kodak's behalf here in the past but it has always had a largely negative result due to the old guard witch hunt practices. Now with Kodak gaining traction in the industry we could see a presence here again but it will depend on the tone of the response...no one wants to have to constantly fend off negativity from old film users when there are really positive people to be engaging with who are young, talented, driven and inspired not to mention respectful.

And finally, even when Simon was active here I often said his presence here was the exception, not the rule. Ilford's presence here is now a mere fraction of what it used to be and that does not make them less of a company or their products inferior.

Bottom line, Kodak is doing just fine and if this place can actually behave, we might see their voice here again.

flavio81 · Jan 6, 2017

Ai Print said:
(...) it has always had a largely negative result due to the old guard witch hunt practices. (...) no one wants to have to constantly fend off negativity from old film users (...) if this place can actually behave, we might see their voice here again.

I participate in many internet forum and this is one of the most civilized forums out there in the web. I don't understand such claims of negativity, and if there is any negativity here, it is on your assesment of we forumers as "old" and "negative". I'm on my thirties, by the way. And I find APUG to be filled with people with great "vibes".

MattKing · Jan 6, 2017

flavio81 said:
I participate in many internet forum and this is one of the most civilized forums out there in the web. I don't understand such claims of negativity, and if there is any negativity here, it is on your assesment of we forumers as "old" and "negative". I'm on my thirties, by the way. And I find APUG to be filled with people with great "vibes".

Flavio:
There has been a lot of Anti-Kodak negativity here.
When I joined, I was dismayed to encounter and actually complained about a prolific poster whose avatar was a cartoon character urinating on a Kodak logo.
His avatar was consistent in style and sensitivity (??) with most of his posts here - both Kodak related and otherwise. I was not the only one upset with him, and he was subsequently banned.

Chris Livsey · Jan 6, 2017

flavio81 said:
(*) In the same way as when they had to modify (or reformulate?) Plus-X and Tri-X (and rename it 125PX and 400TX) when it was moved to a different coater years ago. The reformulation gave significantly finer grain, if i recall correctly.

Absolutely agree, I'm just warning those who think the exact old emulsion is coming back.
As for the Tri-X reformulation there are those who have not forgiven or forgotten that yet

Anon Ymous · Jan 6, 2017

flavio81 said:
I participate in many internet forum and this is one of the most civilized forums out there in the web. I don't understand such claims of negativity, and if there is any negativity here, it is on your assesment of we forumers as "old" and "negative". I'm on my thirties, by the way. And I find APUG to be filled with people with great "vibes".

Flavio, I agree with Ai Print, some people in here have been ridiculously negative towards Kodak. Perhaps you haven't been here long enough, seeing that you joined in late 2014. I've seen quite a bit in my time here, but I've also discovered some when searching old threads. Bashing Kodak was a favorite pass time for some members. The analog photography world was falling apart, but some people kept nagging about the discontinuation of their beloved product. It could be paper, a film, a film format, some chemical, whatever. Kodachrome has been the reason behind endless pointless, daft, bizarre, insertwhateveryouwishhere posts, as well as threads. Actually, there are still few members whose contribution to this forum is... (drumroll) ... Kodak bashing! Few times it is fair to some extent, the vast majority of the times it is just dumb.

Chris Livsey · Jan 6, 2017

Sperdynamite said:
Hah! You should see what dev/transfer of a Super 8 reel costs NOW!

Thank you. I had no idea this was bargain stuff

Chris Livsey · Jan 6, 2017

sheets and medium format; those formats are certainly possible depending on the level of demand.

Bringing back a film is not as simple as you might think. There's a very significant R&D (Research & Development) that is necessary to re-formulate the product based on component availability and any equipment changes that have been made or any changes to environmental health and safety regulations. So the intent here is to bring back a daylight 100 speed Ektachrome film. Saturation levels and performance characteristics are still TBD at this point but in terms of the old Ektachrome it will certainly be along those same lines and we'll know more as we go along.
T. J. Mooney Kodak's World Wide Product and Business manager for film at Kodak

http://filmsnotdead.com/

flavio81 · Jan 6, 2017

Anon Ymous said:
Flavio, I agree with Ai Print, some people in here have been ridiculously negative towards Kodak. Perhaps you haven't been here long enough, seeing that you joined in late 2014. I've seen quite a bit in my time here, but I've also discovered some when searching old threads. Bashing Kodak was a favorite pass time for some members. The analog photography world was falling apart, but some people kept nagging about the discontinuation of their beloved product. It could be paper, a film, a film format, some chemical, whatever. Kodachrome has been the reason behind endless pointless, daft, bizarre, insertwhateveryouwishhere posts, as well as threads. Actually, there are still few members whose contribution to this forum is... (drumroll) ... Kodak bashing! Few times it is fair to some extent, the vast majority of the times it is just dumb.

I think there is a difference at expressing dissatisfaction with the way Kodak has been handling its business and being "a negative person" in the forum.

For example, i don't think anybody is happy here that kodak (and fuji) suddendly ramped up their prices to astronomical levels while ILFORD (and Foma and others) have kept prices more or less steady. Moreover here, the lack of communication between Kodak (the company) and the local distributors and labs, made many of them think Kodak did not manufacture any black and white film anymore! This is what the actual local Kodak distributor said to the local labs here. So OK, perhaps asking for some Kodak representative at APUG is too much, but there were things that could have been done better with regard to communication.

Pointing those things doesn't make an APUG forumer "a negative person."

Of course I agree that crying over Kodachrome is ridiculous.

Ai Print · Jan 6, 2017

flavio81 said:
For example, i don't think anybody is happy here that kodak (and fuji) suddendly ramped up their prices to astronomical levels while ILFORD (and Foma and others) have kept prices more or less steady.

That has to be region specific since from what I see Kodak's prices are in line with or lower than other film makers, so maybe not use the term "anybody" as a broad indicator?

People have to give things time, Kodak had some really rough spots in the past 10 years and a fair number of people at Kodak who wanted the best for the company / customer back then are still there and still do.

After thinking otherwise for nearly 20 years now, it's starting to warm a lot of hearts to not see film die and to not see Kodak die for that matter either. The amount of time and money I have sank into charting my future path in film and darkroom work would be considered here by many here to be staggering. I have not done that blindly and have always had faith in film, film makers and that includes Kodak.

Agulliver · Jan 6, 2017

This *is* a pretty civilised forum, and yet even here....Kodak announce the Resurrection of Ektachrome - something I feel we should all see as good news even those who will never use it - and some people don't celebrate an important increase in choice of available films...they simply moan because it's not available in some format they wish to use or because it's not Kodachrome.

I loved Kodachrome. Shot miles of it in super 8 and many yards in 135. Nothing has ever been like Kodachrome...but I accept that it is highly unlikely to ever come back due to the complex K14 process, machinery and chemicals required to run K14.

What I do see here is Ektachrome coming back...something I used a little in 135 and a fair amount in super 8. I see a deleted film product coming back. One I have some use for, where others might buy a shed load every month. Only in two formats, but who knows what the future holds? If they were bringing back XXXX in some bizarre sheet format I've never used, I would still applaud the rebirth of a discontinued product....and the increased choice for film users.

flavio81 · Jan 6, 2017

Ai Print said:
That has to be region specific since from what I see Kodak's prices are in line with or lower than other film makers, so maybe not use the term "anybody" as a broad indicator?

People have to give things time, Kodak had some really rough spots in the past 10 years and a fair number of people at Kodak who wanted the best for the company / customer back then are still there and still do.

After thinking otherwise for nearly 20 years now, it's starting to warm a lot of hearts to not see film die and to not see Kodak die for that matter either. The amount of time and money I have sank into charting my future path in film and darkroom work by many here would be considered staggering. I have not done that blindly and have always had faith in film, film makers and that includes Kodak.

Daniel,

I wish Kodak the best. I don't want Kodak to die, i want them to keep film alive. I really appreciate, deeply, the work of Kodak engineers and technicians and operators out there that make wonderful films like Portra and Ektar possible, as well as TMAX (truly a modern classic).

But that appreciation doesn't mean one has to keep silent or be blind to things that don't seem right. Do you understand what i mean? It's the same with my country. I love my country, but that doesn't mean i will get angry if somebody points out the problems that my country experiences, like generalized corruption or severe social problems.

If one cares about someone or somebody or some company, one needs to point out the problems as well, so they are addressed.

ILFORD and ADOX and Ferrania are setting a new standard for reaching out to people in the XXI century and Kodak used to be the state-of-the-art film company, so it's reasonable to expect them to be also state-of-the-art in reaching out to public, and thus it's reasonable to be dissapointed if such standard is not met.

Kind regards,
F.

flavio81 · Jan 6, 2017

Agulliver said:
This *is* a pretty civilised forum, and yet even here....Kodak announce the Resurrection of Ektachrome - something I feel we should all see as good news even those who will never use it - and some people don't celebrate an important increase in choice of available films...they simply moan because it's not available in some format they wish to use or because it's not Kodachrome.

Agulliver,

But the vast majority of APUG forumers are openly celebrating and applauding the resurrection of Ektachrome. I think this is what counts.

hsports · Jan 6, 2017

Great news from Kodak!

Ai Print · Jan 6, 2017

This is a positive day for Kodak ( pun intended ) and a positive day for APUG as I do agree that most are celebrating the announcement of a product being brought back into Kodak's line. I don't shoot a lot of color film but I do shoot it 35, 120 and 4x5 and love the results, more than ok with this film just being in 35mm for now.

I would love to take 50-100 rolls of this new film and head to Morocco, Oaxaca, Nicaragua or Cambodia with my Leica M6 and M3 and just go crazy with it.

Wayne · Jan 6, 2017

Well I can't print it in the darkroom so this is about as exciting to me as a digital version of an analog photography magazine. Meh. But I suppose its not a bad thing in the bigger picture, of keeping film products alive, as long as it doesn't become a trap that fails and drags other products down with it.

Photo Engineer · Jan 6, 2017

The reformulation is indeed related to the availability of chemicals. Most probably it is due to the older couplers used in the Ektachrome line of products which required formalin in the process. It may also be that they intend to use couplers with better image stability. IDK.

PE

Anon Ymous · Jan 6, 2017

flavio81 said:
I think there is a difference at expressing dissatisfaction with the way Kodak has been handling its business and being "a negative person" in the forum.

Flavio, it wasn't you that I had in mind. You're not the sort of negative person I'm talking about.

flavio81 said:
For example, i don't think anybody is happy here that kodak (and fuji) suddendly ramped up their prices to astronomical levels while ILFORD (and Foma and others) have kept prices more or less steady. Moreover here, the lack of communication between Kodak (the company) and the local distributors and labs, made many of them think Kodak did not manufacture any black and white film anymore! This is what the actual local Kodak distributor said to the local labs here. So OK, perhaps asking for some Kodak representative at APUG is too much, but there were things that could have been done better with regard to communication.

Pointing those things doesn't make an APUG forumer "a negative person."

Of course I agree that crying over Kodachrome is ridiculous.

Again, as Ai Print said, that's probably region specific pricing. There is at least one thread about excessive price increases of Ilford products in Japan for example. In Greece, and Europe in general as far as I can tell, Kodak's prices are for the most part at least a bit lower than those of their direct competitors (Fuji, Ilford). In fact, if I had to name a single case of huge price increase, that would be Fuji's Velvia 50. Back in 2008 it was about 8€ for a 36exp roll and nowadays it has gone to almost 16€! I assume a result of low sales and being the single E6 film producer.

But I honestly hope that things go well for all manufacturers out there. The more choices, the merrier.

Kodak Reintroduces Ektachrome.

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