Kodak rapid fix, TMY-2

[Bruce Watson]

I'm working with 5x4 TMY-2, processed in a Jobo 3010 tank, 10 sheets at a time. I'm mixing up my fixer from concentrate before each processing run.

How much concentrate do I need for the "standard" 80 sqin of film area? I'm asking because I seem to remember that TMY-2, indeed all the Tmax films, are "harder" on fixer than traditional films.

Also, to make stock from concentrate it's a 1:3 dilution (one part concentrate, three parts water). If for some reason this turns out to not be enough volume for the Jobo 3010 tank, can I dilute the concentrate farther and still be effective? Say 1:4? As long as I run it for maximum time (five minutes IIRC) I would think I would be fine. But is there a reason to not do this?

 

[Bruce Watson]

I was feeling like making a processing run tonight so I dug around, found Kodak's 800 number, and called them.

For the record, Kodak says that Rapid Fixer can handle 120 10x8 sheets of TMY-2 per 3.8 liters of stock. Or, a 5x4 sheet needs just 8ml of stock. So my ten 5x4 sheets need just 80ml of stock.

My Jobo 3010 tank minimum is 210 ml of solution. So if I wanted to use the fixer one-shot (which I do), I'd have to basically triple dilution.

Can I do this and still get complete fixing? Has anyone here done anything like this? Or am I barking up the wrong tree here?

 

[wogster]

I was feeling like making a processing run tonight so I dug around, found Kodak's 800 number, and called them.

For the record, Kodak says that Rapid Fixer can handle 120 10x8 sheets of TMY-2 per 3.8 liters of stock. Or, a 5x4 sheet needs just 8ml of stock. So my ten 5x4 sheets need just 80ml of stock.

My Jobo 3010 tank minimum is 210 ml of solution. So if I wanted to use the fixer one-shot (which I do), I'd have to basically triple dilution.

Can I do this and still get complete fixing? Has anyone here done anything like this? Or am I barking up the wrong tree here?

You need to do a clip test, take a sheet of unexposed film from the package, seal the rest of the package and turn the light on, cut this into 5 strips, so each strip is 1x4 inches, this will be used to establish fixing time.

Mix up the 8ml of stock, to get 210ml of solution, put this in a tray and put 1 drop on a strip of film, after 30 seconds, put this in the tray, when you can't see where you put the drop, the film is clear. Fixing time should be double this time. If clearing time is longer then 5 minutes, then your fixing time is too long. So mix up another batch using 16ml of stock, use another strip and do the same test again, keep doing this until you can get an acceptable clearing time, typically 2 - 2½ minutes.

When a company like Kodak or Ilford comes up with fixer capacities, it's often based on an acceptable maximum silver load for the fixer, based on mixing a working solution, pouring some out into a drum or tray, and when done pouring it back into the bottle, so you mix say 1 gallon of working solution, pouring out what you need, and pouring back into the bottle, so the maximum silver load for a gallon is reached slowly over time. What some high volume users do, is replace some working solution with each roll, so that it never gets to the maximum silver load.

For one shot use, you don't want to reach or exceed maximum silver load, remember that fixer is cheap, so if you don't get full capacity, don't worry about it.




specific amount, and pouring it back into the bottle when you have used it, so that the maximum silver load for say 1L or 1 Gallon of fixer is reach gradually. When used 1 shot, you typically don't want to reach maximum silver load,

 

[John Shriver]

Or, if you're mostly trying to save money, go for the best buy in fixer next time -- the big jug of Kodak Flexicolor C-41 fixer. It fixes anything just fine, and it's dirt cheap, since it's a really competitive market.

 

[donbga]

I was feeling like making a processing run tonight so I dug around, found Kodak's 800 number, and called them.

For the record, Kodak says that Rapid Fixer can handle 120 10x8 sheets of TMY-2 per 3.8 liters of stock. Or, a 5x4 sheet needs just 8ml of stock. So my ten 5x4 sheets need just 80ml of stock.

My Jobo 3010 tank minimum is 210 ml of solution. So if I wanted to use the fixer one-shot (which I do), I'd have to basically triple dilution.

Can I do this and still get complete fixing? Has anyone here done anything like this? Or am I barking up the wrong tree here?

Bruce,

I think you are being penny wise and pound foolish. I mix 1 liter working solution and track the number of square inches of film used. I store the working stock for up to six months with no problems. When I've reached the 3/4 capacity of the working stock I test with hypo check. IMO, photographers tend to waste a lot of expensive fixer needlessly.

 

[Bruce Watson]

Bruce,

I think you are being penny wise and pound foolish.

I'm OK with you thinking that. But it doesn't answer my question.

 

[Bruce Watson]

You need to do a clip test, take a sheet of unexposed film from the package, seal the rest of the package and turn the light on, cut this into 5 strips, so each strip is 1x4 inches, this will be used to establish fixing time.

Mix up the 8ml of stock, to get 210ml of solution, put this in a tray and put 1 drop on a strip of film, after 30 seconds, put this in the tray, when you can't see where you put the drop, the film is clear. Fixing time should be double this time. If clearing time is longer then 5 minutes, then your fixing time is too long. So mix up another batch using 16ml of stock, use another strip and do the same test again, keep doing this until you can get an acceptable clearing time, typically 2 - 2½ minutes.

I can do this, and probably will. I like your method - the single drop makes sense and I hadn't thought of that before.

I'm just wondering if there's really any reason to avoid diluting fixer for use with film. Other than the extended fixing time I mean.

 

[donbga]

I'm OK with you thinking that. But it doesn't answer my question.

The answer is no you can't get by with 80 ml of fixer in a 3010 drum, sorry I wasn't more explicit.

By trying to using such small amounts you are making your fixing step unreliable, IMO. You will get a more predictable result by using the correct volume of stock fixer - 210 ml and in the end you won't spend any more money doing that.

 

[trexx]

Mix a liter of working solution, as donbga suggested, but make 2 one for first fix one for second.. Put in 210ml in for 2.5 minutes from first . dump and then put 2.10 in for another 2.5 minutes from second. This will provide enough fixer to provide fixing. Test the first batch for exhaustion, when it is toss and make the second the first and mist a new batch for second.

 

[dancqu]

Or, a 5x4 sheet needs just 8ml of stock. So my ten 5x4
sheets need just 80ml of stock.

My Jobo 3010 tank minimum is 210 ml of solution.

So if I wanted to use the fixer one-shot (which I do),
I'd have to basically triple dilution. Can I do this and
still get complete fixing?

No problem. When I was using rapid concentrate
1:24 was the dilution. Just about any dilution will
work as long as there is enough of the chemistry.

I was using 20 milliliters of concentrate in a 500
milliliter working strength solution; one 120 roll.
I've worked at even a higher dilution with no
problem. More dilute, more time. Dan

 

[Bruce Watson]

OK, some interesting results.

I pulled a sheet of unexposed unprocessed 5x4 TMY-2 to use for test strips. Found a small dish, made up 25ml of solution (1/10th what I would use in a 3010 tank).

First try, 2ml of concentrate, 23ml of distilled water. For the record, 2ml of concentrate comes from the recommended capacity of 120 10x8 sheets of film in one gallon of stock Kodak Rapid Fix. That works out to 2ml per 5x4 sheet.

Anyway, put strip in and continuously agitated. Time to clear was about 5 minutes. Ran it to 10 minutes with no visible change. 30 seconds of running water wash, hang to dry. Well, it only has to last a few hours ;-) Observed that film has a purple-ish tint to it. I have a fully processed sheet that I used for wash calibration that is quite clear of tints. So this is interesting. Perhaps one or more sensitizing dyes that would have come out in the developer, or wash, if I'd gone that route?

Second try, 4ml of concentrate, 21 ml of water. Time to clear about 2 minutes. Ran it to 10 minutes too, but purple tint stays, at same level as other test strip. Hmmm...

It's pretty clear to me that 4ml of concentrate is more than enough for the test strip.

If I used the proscribed levels, that is the stock solution of Kodak Rapid Fix, it's mixed 1+3, so there'd be 6.25ml of concentrate in 25ml of stock solution. Just for reference.

The only way to really tell, I think, is to do a full real-world run with an unexposed sheet (for worst case scenario) and test that sheet for residual silver after fixing.

Sigh... more painful than I hoped it would be.

 

[dancqu]

[QUOTES=Bruce Watson;740689]

Some observations of those interesting results:

"I pulled a sheet of unexposed unprocessed 5x4 TMY-2 to use for test
strips. Found a small dish, made up 25ml of solution (1/10th what
I would use in a 3010 tank)."

The entire 4x5 served as a test strip? I used entire 120 rolls when
testing fixers. The next in Quotes implies a total of 8ml for 4, 4x5.
And that for an iodized film. I wonder if that is enough.

"First try, 2ml of concentrate, 23ml of distilled water. For the record, 2ml
of concentrate comes from the recommended capacity of 120 10x8 sheets
of film in one gallon of stock Kodak Rapid Fix. That works out to 2ml per
5x4 sheet."

I'd think it impossible to process a 4x5 in so little solution volume.
If less than a 4x5 sheet was processed in that 25ml of solution
then your results are meaningless.

"Anyway, put strip in and continuously agitated. Time to clear was
about 5 minutes. Ran it to 10 minutes with no visible change. 30
seconds of running water wash, hang to dry. Well, it only has to
last a few hours) Observed that film has a purple-ish tint to it
I have a fully processed sheet that I used for wash calibration
that is quite clear of tints. So this is interesting. Perhaps one
or more sensitizing dyes that would have come out in the
developer, or wash, if I'd gone that route?"

IIRC a first soak in an alkaline solution will help eliminate the tint.
For next testing use a small amount of carbonate in a pre-soak.
Also jug some water for a room temperature wash. A wash
more like the Ilford sequence. Observe the color of each
wash. My very color full post fixer Acros has but the
faintest of color after the third wash; all room temp.

"Second try, 4ml of concentrate, 21 ml of water. Time to clear about
2 minutes. Ran it to 10 minutes too, but purple tint stays, at same
level as other test strip. Hmmm..."

See above comment. Less than half the time to clear. More
dilute, more time.

'It's pretty clear to me that 4ml of concentrate is more than enough
for the test strip."

I tested for fixer minimums some years ago by going under the
amount needed to clear within 10 minutes then back tracked.

"The only way to really tell, I think, is to do a full real-world run
with an unexposed sheet (for worst case scenario) and test that
sheet for residual silver after fixing."

Use a carbonated solution first. Bicarbonate may do. Your day
to day processing will be anxiety free once you've the ground
work out of the way. Also you'll know your one-shot fix has
not good chemistry going down the drain. Dan

 

[Bruce Watson]

residual silver test?

Did some more testing, found that 3ml of concentrate in a 1:7 dilution gives me about 2.5 minutes to clear a strip of TMY-2. This is the same dilution that Kodak recommends for paper processing.

So I ran a batch of film through the entire workflow. XTOL 1:3, dilute indicator stop, Kodak Rapid Fixed 1:7 for seven minutes (about 3x time to clear), constant agitation in a 3010 tank, 20C, 30ml of concentrate + 210ml of distilled water to make 240ml of dilute fixer. Came out looking good, no tints or anything out of the ordinary. Images on film look good. Seems to work fine.

Last step then is to verify that the silver is gone with something like the Kodak residual silver test (ST-1) which doesn't seem to be available any more. There's a similar kit available form Photographer's Formulary, but it's $10 USD plus another $10 USD for shipping. Seems like a lot for a test, and a solution with a 3 month shelf life.

Any better way to test for residual silver?

 

[dancqu]

Any better way to test for residual silver?

Ten sheets of 4x5?

The ST-1 is nothing more than sodium sulfide. IIRC
a 2% solution. I tried the drop wise test on film but
due to some little fog could not be certain. I ended
up, after establishing minimums, using some little
excess and taking note of the clarity of the film.

I suggest you establish minimums then back off.
Worst case is unexposed but developed. Dan

 

[Bruce Watson]

pH

Some idle speculation. I speculate one of the reasons that using Kodak rapid fixer in a paper dilution works for film (as I've described earlier in this thread) is the pH. More specifically, the pH carry over from the Kodak indicator stop bath I'm using. I wonder how well this would do with a water bath after the developer. Then the fixer would have to do all the work of swinging the pH from alkaline to acid all by itself. And I wonder if the small quantity of dilute fixer could do that well enough for the fixer to work well. I mean, it's not like I'm doing this in a tray with lots of "excess" fixer to work with -- I'm doing this with just enough to cover in a jobo 3010 tank -- in this case just 240ml for 10 5x4 sheets.

Any thoughts?

 

[dancqu]

Some idle speculation.

What is the issue here? Is that Kodak fixer a hardening fixer?
Are you concerned about it losing it's hardening ability if it turns
alkaline? It is true that an acid hardening fixer must remain
acidic. At least I've never read any thing to the contrary.

I don't know what takes place when an acid hardening fixer
turns alkaline. I don't concern myself with hardening fixers
and don't recall the issue ever having come up.

Perhaps someone will clue us in. Anybody. Dan

 

[Bruce Watson]

What is the issue here? Is that Kodak fixer a hardening fixer?

No Dan, I'm not using hardener.

It must be relatively difficult and frustrating to try to figure out my motives so that you can try to answer the "bigger issue" that I'm not even asking. It will be much easier for you and me (since it's just us anyway -- everyone else seems to be afraid to engage this thread for some reason) if you trust me to be able to ask the question that I want answered and draw my own conclusions.

All I'm asking is what's the effect of carryover pH on fixing action. If I take film soaked in water with a pH of 7-ish and dump dilute fixer on it, will the resulting pH be sufficient for the fixer to work? Or do I need to first soak the film in an acid stop with a pH of what? Say 3-ish? before dumping in the dilute fixer? This would undoubtedly raise the pH in the emulsion at least somewhat. The question is, would that "somewhat" have any effect on fixing action?

 

[dancqu]

No Dan, I'm not using hardener. All I'm asking is what's the
effect of carryover pH on fixing action. If I take film soaked
in water with a pH of 7-ish and dump dilute fixer on it, will
the resulting pH be sufficient for the fixer to work?

First of all fixers work acid or alkaline. A few this NG, at least
now and then, dump the fixer in with the developer. With the
usual off the shelf acidic non-hardening rapid fixers I would
expect no problem were the PH to shift to alkaline. If any
thing I'd expect the fixer to be a little faster due to some
swelling of the emulsion.

With room to spare in that tube I'd might dilute the fixer
even more and with out any stop, pour in the fix. I do
that with my 120. Mine is the plainest of fixers.

BTW, I'm a little surprised so little fix cleared 10, 4x5s.
And TMY-2 at that. Let that be an example to any
following this thread. Dan