Kodak Pyro-Soda Developer (formula) D-70

I was thumbing through my 1936 edition of Kodak's classic, "How To Make Good Pictures" and came across a formula for a developer [on page 158] that I can find no other reference to in all of webdom, "Pyro-Soda Developer Formula D-70" . . . Written as follows:

Water … … … … … … … … 1.0 liter … … (NOTE: No beginning temperature was given)
Sodium Sulphite (des) … … . 7.7 grams
Sodium Bisulphite … … … … 0.7 grams
Pyro … … … … … … … … …4.2 grams
Sodium Carbonate (des) … … 5.6 grams
Potassium Bromide … … … ..0.4 grams
Water to make … … … … … . 2.0 liters

Dissolve the chemicals in the order given.

Temperature of developer must be 65°F (18°C)
Time of development about fifteen minutes

==========================================================================================

OK, frankly I'll probably never try this developer, but I'm wondering, out of my sheer nerdiness (!) — among those here who are a million times more knowledgeable of these things than I — if you could tell me, even without testing but just judging from the written formula:

• Which developer, today, would this be similar to, if any?
• Does this developer have any special advantages?
• Any particular drawbacks?
• Which current films could be a good match?

. . . and any other interesting trivia relating to the formula.

If you're curious to see other esoteric formulas, at your request, I could post two others [three ingredient, pyro-soda formulas] from the same book (page 147) which are suggested for use with the old, chrome, Kodak Film Tanks (2-1/4 inch, 2-1/2 inch and 3-1/2 inch models) . . . the problem being, however, that the total volume of these formulas aren't given. Kodak only tells us [for the part of the formula which usually say, "Water To Make"] to "fill cup to embossed ring" of the developing tank. < If you happen to know what the specific volumes are for any of these old tanks or where I can find such information, I'd really appreciate it!

Cheers!

Christopher

The only single solution pyro developer I can think of...and that I have used.... is 510-Pyro. All other ones that I have used are either a two part, or a three part. Is that formula for D-70 a working solution, or stock that is then diluted down to a working solution? I suspect it is a working solution.

Digital Truth says to mix up formula at 52C/125F
I might have to give it a go, just for the sake of curiosity.

Andrew O'Neill said:

The only single solution pyro developer I can think of...and that I have used.... is 510-Pyro. All other ones that I have used are either a two part, or a three part. Is that formula for D-70 a working solution, or stock that is then diluted down to a working solution? I suspect it is a working solution.

Click to expand...

Ah! Thanks, that's already a surprise, Andrew (the fact that there aren't many single solution pyro developers)
The formula printed in the book does not give instructions to dilute, so I'd say it's a working solution. However, no capacities are given, so I wonder if it's intended to be "one shot"?

christophern said:

if it's intended to be "one shot"?

Click to expand...

I'd assume so, with quite limited lifetime once mixed. So this is something you'd ideally make and then use immediately.
Other drawbacks are the likelihood of high overall stain, it'll probably be kind to slow-working and I suspect it may be liable to uneven development as well.

Note that pyro could stand for either pyrocatechol or pyrogallol. I assume the former.

Andrew O'Neill said:

Digital Truth says to mix up formula at 52C/125F
I might have to give it a go, just for the sake of curiosity.

Click to expand...

I'm curious too. It'd be fun to do a complete "olden days" shoot using a 120 folding camera from that era, some Foma ortho film and this 88 year old (or, older!) developer formula. I wonder if the 'look' of that era would be re-created. Hmm.

koraks said:

I'd assume so, with quite limited lifetime once mixed. So this is something you'd ideally make and then use immediately.
Other drawbacks are the likelihood of high overall stain, it'll probably be kind to slow-working and I suspect it may be liable to uneven development as well.

Note that pyro could stand for either pyrocatechol or pyrogallol. I assume the former.

Click to expand...

(re: "pyro could stand for either pyrocatechol or pyrogallol. I assume the former.")

I agree.

koraks said:

I'd assume so, with quite limited lifetime once mixed. So this is something you'd ideally make and then use immediately.
Other drawbacks are the likelihood of high overall stain, it'll probably be kind to slow-working and I suspect it may be liable to uneven development as well.

Note that pyro could stand for either pyrocatechol or pyrogallol. I assume the former.

Click to expand...

(re: . . . it'll probably be kind to slow-working [kind "of" slow-working?] ) ... Yes, probably.. given the 15 minute development time! At the same time — given that relatively long development time — I'm wondering how that would cause un-evenness. Wouldn't it be the opposite?

Since it's a pyro developer, it's one shot.

christophern said:

I'm wondering how that would cause un-evenness. Wouldn't it be the opposite?

Click to expand...

Pyro-based developers can be rather temperamental in this regard. I suppose it has something to do with the tanning action they have on the gelatin. Not to open a new can of worms, but allegedly, Sandy King spent quite some attention to this aspect when he worked on Pyrocat HD, which indeed does work quite well even for rotary processing. Compared to 510 pyro (which of course is pyrogallol-based, not pyrocatechol), the difference is quite pronounced in my experience.

Andrew O'Neill said:

Since it's a pyro developer, it's one shot.

Click to expand...

I suspect it's possible to make a reusable/replenishable pyro-based developer, but I imagine it would involve an order of magnitude (at least) more sulfite. Maybe such formulas have been around, even. I'm sure someone will come along and offer an example if this is the case.

So, here's Kodak's D-1 pyro-soda formula from the 1949 Chemicals and Formulae handbook:

KODAK FORMULA D-1
Normal-contrast pyro-soda dish or tank developer for plates and films
Stock Solution A
Metric ----------------------------------------------- Avoirdupois
9.8 gm. --------------- Sodium bisulphite ------------- 345 gr.
60.0 gm. -------------- Pyro ---------------------------- 4 oz . 350 gr.
1.1 gm. --------------- Potassium bromide ------------ 40 g r.
(11 c.c.) --------------- (or 10% solution) -------------- (420 minims)
1000 c.c. -------------- Water to make ----------------- 80 oz.

Stock Solution B
210 gm. --------------- Sodium sulphite, crystals ------ 16 o z. 350 gr.
(105 gm.) ------------- (or anhydrous) ------------------ (8 oz. 175 g r .)
1000 c.c. --------------- Water to make ----------------- 80 oz.

Stock Solution C
200 gm. ---------------- Sodium carbonate, crystals ---- 16 oz.
(75 gm.) ---------------- (or anhydrous) ------------------ (6 oz.)
1000 c.c. ---------------- Water to make ------------------ 80 oz.
Dissolve the chemicals in the order given.
For Dish Development-Take I part A, I part B. I part C and 7 parts of water.
Develop for 5 to 7 minutes 65° F. ( 18° C. ).
For Tank Development- Take I part A, I part B. I part C and 11 parts of water.
Develop for about 12 minutes at 65° F. ( 18° C. ).

And here is D.177 Pyro-Soda Developer from the Kodak "Formulary" booklet dated June 1944

*D.177 ------------ DEVELOPER- PYRO·SODA
Solution A
Metric --------------------------------------------------- Avoirdupois
1.4 grams -------- Potassium metabisulphite ---------- 50 grains
12.5 grams ------- Pyro --------------------------------- I ounce
1.7 grams -------- Potassium bromide ----------------- 60 grains
150 c.c. ----------- Water to make --------------------- 12 ounces

Solution B
150 c.c. ----------- Solution A -------------------------- 12 ounces
1000 c.c. ---------- Water to make --------------------- 80 ounces.
[N.B.: This is really a two-solution developer; Solution A is simply diluted to make the final stock solution.]

Solution C
100.0 grams ------ Sodium sulphite (cryst.) ------------ 8 ounces
(50.0 grams) ------ (or anhydrous) --------------------- (4 ounces)
100.0 grams ------ Sodium carbonate (cryst.) ---------- 8 ounces
(37.5 grams) ------ (or anhydrous) --------------------- (3 ounces)
1000 c.c. ---------- Water to make ---------------------- 80 ounces

CHARACTERISTICS AND PURPOSE
A pyro-soda dish developer for plates and films.
For general use.
Dissolve the chemicals in the order given. For negatives of average contrast, use equal parts of
Solutions B and C. For portraits and softer negatives. use equal parts of Solutions Band C and
2 parts of water. Develop for 5-8 minutes at 65° F. (I8° C.).
• Available as a "Kodak" Packed Developer Powder.

Both these seem similar to the OP's formula (if not identical, I haven't done the comparison).
I find the lower standard developing temperature interesting.

Given the age of the formulae, I would think that Pyro here would be pyrogallol.

Best,

Doremus

Any time I've seen a Kodak formula with "pyro" in the name it has referred to pyrogallol. Like most companies, Kodak had several pyrogallol and metol-pyrogallol developers. They are basically ancient history.

I haven't seen this particular formula before but it would have been a one-shot type that you mix for immediate use and discard as it will oxidize fairly rapidly.

You could try it with any film but it will tend to be on the grainy side so it might work better with finer grained films. This general type of pyro developer also has a reputation for not producing full emulsion speed - this may or may not be the case.

Pyrogallol is a relatively nasty compound so be careful.

One of the main differences between formulas like this and "modern" pyro or catechol developers (Wimberley's formulas, PMK etc.) is that these older formulas contained more sulfite - not very much sulfite by general purpose developer standards, but enough to inhibit imagewise stain. The more modern concoctions are generally formulated to maximize imagewise stain. They also usually contain an additional developing agent (metol or a Phenidone) to form a superadditive pair.

As for advantages in this particular case, I would say no, but anything "pyro" can be a touchy, quasi-religious subject so I'm not going to elaborate. Someone else can do it

christophern said:

I was thumbing through my 1936 edition of Kodak's classic, "How To Make Good Pictures" and came across a formula for a developer [on page 158] that I can find no other reference to in all of webdom, "Pyro-Soda Developer Formula D-70" . . . Written as follows:

Water … … … … … … … … 1.0 liter … … (NOTE: No beginning temperature was given)
Sodium Sulphite (des) … … . 7.7 grams
Sodium Bisulphite … … … … 0.7 grams
Pyro … … … … … … … … …4.2 grams
Sodium Carbonate (des) … … 5.6 grams
Potassium Bromide … … … ..0.4 grams
Water to make … … … … … . 2.0 liters

Dissolve the chemicals in the order given.

Temperature of developer must be 65°F (18°C)
Time of development about fifteen minutes

==========================================================================================

OK, frankly I'll probably never try this developer, but I'm wondering, out of my sheer nerdiness (!) — among those here who are a million times more knowledgeable of these things than I — if you could tell me, even without testing but just judging from the written formula:

• Which developer, today, would this be similar to, if any?
• Does this developer have any special advantages?
• Any particular drawbacks?
• Which current films could be a good match?

. . . and any other interesting trivia relating to the formula.

If you're curious to see other esoteric formulas, at your request, I could post two others [three ingredient, pyro-soda formulas] from the same book (page 147) which are suggested for use with the old, chrome, Kodak Film Tanks (2-1/4 inch, 2-1/2 inch and 3-1/2 inch models) . . . the problem being, however, that the total volume of these formulas aren't given. Kodak only tells us [for the part of the formula which usually say, "Water To Make"] to "fill cup to embossed ring" of the developing tank. < If you happen to know what the specific volumes are for any of these old tanks or where I can find such information, I'd really appreciate it!

Cheers!

Christopher

Click to expand...

Prior to the blossoming of many different kinds of films, standard development of the ortho and early panchro era was apparently 17 minutes in D-76 (replenished) stock. I've developed Verichrome (the original ortho version) by inspection in cool D-23 with borax and some benzotriazole added (ought to be similar working time to D-76 stock), and wound up pulling the film at IIRC 17 minutes with good results.

You could presumably compare D-76 stock times for that Foma 400 Ortho to the old 17 minute standard and get a good starting point for that pyro-soda D-70 at about 15% shorter time.

christophern said:

I was thumbing through my 1936 edition of Kodak's classic, "How To Make Good Pictures" and came across a formula for a developer [on page 158] that I can find no other reference to in all of webdom, "Pyro-Soda Developer Formula D-70" . . . Written as follows:

Water … … … … … … … … 1.0 liter … … (NOTE: No beginning temperature was given)
Sodium Sulphite (des) … … . 7.7 grams
Sodium Bisulphite … … … … 0.7 grams
Pyro … … … … … … … … …4.2 grams
Sodium Carbonate (des) … … 5.6 grams
Potassium Bromide … … … ..0.4 grams
Water to make … … … … … . 2.0 liters

Dissolve the chemicals in the order given.

Temperature of developer must be 65°F (18°C)
Time of development about fifteen minutes

==========================================================================================

OK, frankly I'll probably never try this developer, but I'm wondering, out of my sheer nerdiness (!) — among those here who are a million times more knowledgeable of these things than I — if you could tell me, even without testing but just judging from the written formula:

• Which developer, today, would this be similar to, if any?
• Does this developer have any special advantages?
• Any particular drawbacks?
• Which current films could be a good match?

. . . and any other interesting trivia relating to the formula.

If you're curious to see other esoteric formulas, at your request, I could post two others [three ingredient, pyro-soda formulas] from the same book (page 147) which are suggested for use with the old, chrome, Kodak Film Tanks (2-1/4 inch, 2-1/2 inch and 3-1/2 inch models) . . . the problem being, however, that the total volume of these formulas aren't given. Kodak only tells us [for the part of the formula which usually say, "Water To Make"] to "fill cup to embossed ring" of the developing tank. < If you happen to know what the specific volumes are for any of these old tanks or where I can find such information, I'd really appreciate it!

Cheers!

Christopher

Click to expand...

The original Pyrogallol-Soda developer dates from 1890-91 (p8):
I believe that later formulations reduced the sulfite resulting in tanning and staining.
Later still PMK introduced metol which speeded up the process so that the less alkaline metaborate could be used giving finer grain.

Andrew O'Neill said:

Since it's a pyro developer, it's one shot.

Click to expand...

(FOREHEAD SLAP) ... Ooops .. Duh. Yes.

Donald Qualls said:

Prior to the blossoming of many different kinds of films, standard development of the ortho and early panchro era was apparently 17 minutes in D-76 (replenished) stock. I've developed Verichrome (the original ortho version) by inspection in cool D-23 with borax and some benzotriazole added (ought to be similar working time to D-76 stock), and wound up pulling the film at IIRC 17 minutes with good results.

You could presumably compare D-76 stock times for that Foma 400 Ortho to the old 17 minute standard and get a good starting point for that pyro-soda D-70 at about 15% shorter time.

Click to expand...

Thanks, Donald.

christophern said:

Thanks, Donald.

Click to expand...

Curious, did you ever run Foma Ortho through that Kodak folder? It's funny this thread popped back up since I just went through a job of setting infinity focus on my old Kodak Special No.1 Autographic. I have a roll of Foma Ortho 400 ready for a walk if the weather permits tomorrow.

D-70 is on my list of to try, developers. I think I've tried just about every staining developer known to man, but that one.

Andrew O'Neill said:

D-70 is on my list of to try, developers. I think I've tried just about every staining developer known to man, but that one.

Click to expand...

Andy,
I haven't tried many staining developer, but have tied PMK, ABC, John Wimberley's WD2D, WD2H+ and Pyrocat. Of those, I like Pyrocat type and WD2H+ the most. PMK a close second. I have some WD2H+ that has been mixed for about 5+ years now, and it still works just like new. Have you found any Pyro/Catechol developers that really outshine Pyrocat-HD?

John Wiegerink said:

Andy,
I haven't tried many staining developer, but have tied PMK, ABC, John Wimberley's WD2D, WD2H+ and Pyrocat. Of those, I like Pyrocat type and WD2H+ the most. PMK a close second. I have some WD2H+ that has been mixed for about 5+ years now, and it still works just like new. Have you found any Pyro/Catechol developers that really outshine Pyrocat-HD?

Click to expand...

The only one that came close was 510-Pyro, Wimberley's WD2D. I've not tried WD2D+. Maybe it's closer to Pyrocat-HD. At any rate, Pyrocat-HD is still tops for me.

Andrew O'Neill said:

The only one that came close was 510-Pyro, Wimberley's WD2D. I've not tried WD2D+. Maybe it's closer to Pyrocat-HD. At any rate, Pyrocat-HD is still tops for me.

Click to expand...

I forgot about 510Pyro. I did try it when Jay first came up with it, but didn't find it better, for me at least, than Pyrocat-MC I was using about that time. It was convenient and maybe a tad sharper to use, but I liked the way Pyrocat held my highlights in control better. I'll stick with Pyrocat for now anyway.

Have a look at this info sheet from Dupont. It has a pyro formula.

John Wiegerink said:

Curious, did you ever run Foma Ortho through that Kodak folder? It's funny this thread popped back up since I just went through a job of setting infinity focus on my old Kodak Special No.1 Autographic. I have a roll of Foma Ortho 400 ready for a walk if the weather permits tomorrow.

Click to expand...

I haven't, yet.

christophern said:

I haven't, yet.

Click to expand...

The old Kodak is still loaded, but I haven't taken that walk yet. We're suppose to have some nice weather this week. Might just take a stroll?