Kodak is out of their mind

I wanted to order som E100G in 8x10. It was not in stock in any of the shops here in Denmark. When they asked Kodak for a price they where told that they will have to order 25 boxes as a minimum. And the price - lets just say, that I can order it anywhere in the world, have it shipped day to day express and still get it cheaper.

Kodak clearly dont want to sell any film in Denmark. What a shame.

I think those order quantities are true just about anywhere on Earth. The difference is that countries like the US have dealers that can sell 25 boxes of this film and countries like Denmark generally don't.

I was at a camera shop in Vancouver recently (Beau Photo) and it had several 8x10 films in stock (primarily Fuji I will confess), so there are some stores that do cater to the market, but 8x10 is most certainly a niche market.

Unfortunately, this is much the same situation with any product, particularly more specialist items. The problem is that an order for one-of-an-item costs much the same in administration, packing and shipping as an order for 25 of the same, and the supplier then has the option of selling at a loss, adding a prohibitive "small order surcharge", or making a minimum order quantity.
It's a fact of business these days, and I think that you have the answer in buying from a niche supplier, who can order in quantity, and accepting the shipping costs. Not ideal, but at least the product is still available.

Falkenberg said:

Kodak clearly dont want to sell any film in Denmark. What a shame.

Click to expand...

Hmm ... what an amazing national conclusion from an individual's one alleged incident. Maybe before we get into another Kodak bashing thread, which is pretty regular on APUG, why don't you try contacting Kodak directly, rather than through the dealer?

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/service/contactKodak/email/film.jhtml?pq-path=8920/9051

If you want to blame someone for film's demise in Denmark, blame your dealer for giving you a run around IMO, not Kodak.

Regards, Art.

I'm with art on this one. I tried to get some E100GX 35mm at my local dealer and they kept telling me that it was back ordered. I talked to the kodak rep and he said "not true". Now I have a few rolls in my fridge because I went somewhere else. Plus all the other film he just handed me to try out.

D.

Falkenberg, why not set up a bulk purchase with your APUG colleagues...

Out of their mind. Go figure. The bulk purchase idea is a great one. Power in numbers and all.

Derek Lofgreen said:

I'm with art on this one. I tried to get some E100GX 35mm at my local dealer and they kept telling me that it was back ordered. I talked to the kodak rep and he said "not true". Now I have a few rolls in my fridge because I went somewhere else. Plus all the other film he just handed me to try out.

D.

Click to expand...

There are two stories here. One is that Kodak does have minimums and it is very hard for some smaller shops to meet the minimums. The second is that many shops would rather lie than tell you that their trade is so small they can't justify the minimums.

Everyone would benefit if Kodak would loosen their order requirements and if the shops would stop saying crazy stuff that isn't true. At least once a month we hear about some shop that claims that Kodak has stopped making 'X' when in fact the shop simply stopped buying X and wanted to divert blame.

Falkenberg said:

I wanted to order som E100G in 8x10. It was not in stock in any of the shops here in Denmark. When they asked Kodak for a price they where told that they will have to order 25 boxes as a minimum. And the price - lets just say, that I can order it anywhere in the world, have it shipped day to day express and still get it cheaper.

Kodak clearly dont want to sell any film in Denmark. What a shame.

Click to expand...

Well, here nobody sells it, and here you can't buy almost anything regarding film photography. So, I order everyithing form other countries. Trust me, it is not a big issue.

I use Ilford, and I don't say Ilford don't want to sell anythig in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I understand business and economy rules, and I would rather buys it somewhere else than lost it forever if they don't act economicaly rational and go into bankrupcy. I simply found a way to get what I need. So, you can do the same.

Living in communism was good thing in this case, it forced us to learn to get things around which were not available "officially "

So, in conclusion, just go to the internet, find a shop which sells it, and order it. Simple as that.

Regards

gr82bart said:

Hmm ... what an amazing national conclusion from an individual's one alleged incident. Maybe before we get into another Kodak bashing thread, which is pretty regular on APUG, why don't you try contacting Kodak directly, rather than through the dealer?

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/service/contactKodak/email/film.jhtml?pq-path=8920/9051

If you want to blame someone for film's demise in Denmark, blame your dealer for giving you a run around IMO, not Kodak.

Regards, Art.

Click to expand...

What I would say has nothing with Kodak, but is has something with how some big companies see some (small) markets.

Iknow more than few people here who tried to buy something from few big companies and/or sellers from USA. Their order were all refused, some got answer with reasons, some got no answers at all.

Thing is, my country is on some sort of "black list" regarding credit card paying credibility. But, thing is also that they refuse all orders from all people, and that include honest people who have money, pays in time, etc...

Som those companies/sellers don't act individually, but they act like "you are all the same" and they simply rather refuse to sell to people here than to deal that issue.

So, when people from countries like mine, small countries, get upset and start bashing some big names, trust me, we speak also from experience and reason, not olny irationally.

Regards

My own experience is that the old importer/dealer system is now letting us down very badly.

Importers and dealers are restricted by minimum orders, are inflexible and not everyone in the trade is aware what is actually available. Trying to buy 120 film in a capital city, Santiago - Chile, I was constantly told it was not imported at all. I visited about 25 stores and few had any B&W film other than Chromogenic, although near the Universities 35mm FP4 & HP5 were in most stores - about 10 - in the same arcade.

I had wanted Tmax400 or 100, in the end I found a lab/store with Ilford & Fuji 120 films, and they could get more within 24hrs. So the Ilford & Fuji distributors can't have been doing a good job, as all the other stores said no 120 film was available.

Kodak B&W films seem to be difficult to find when travelling, what surprises me is how much easier it is to find Ilford FP4 & HP5, although Delta 100 & 400 which I'd prefer seem far harder to find.

Ian

haris said:

Iknow more than few people here who tried to buy something from few big companies and/or sellers from USA. Their order were all refused, some got answer with reasons, some got no answers at all.

Thing is, my country is on some sort of "black list" regarding credit card paying credibility. But, thing is also that they refuse all orders from all people, and that include honest people who have money, pays in time, etc...

Som those companies/sellers don't act individually, but they act like "you are all the same" and they simply rather refuse to sell to people here than to deal that issue.

Click to expand...

If it makes you feel any better, you are not alone. There are several countries that are havens for counterfeit credit cards. The credit card processors (Visa, MC, etc.) are well aware of those countries and warn suppliers that a large proportion of mail/online orders from those countries are fraudulent and if fraudulent, may result in a chargeback. As a business owner, if someone steals from you in this manner, you lose the stock and shipping costs. It takes many sales just to recoup those costs. It is therefore not economically viable to do business with those countries. In short, you suffer for the frauds committed by your fellow countrymen.

Think about it this way. Imagine that you own a store. You notice that with cheques drawn from one particular bank in town, often the cheque is returned for insufficient funds. Your choices as a business are 1-stop accepting all cheques, 2-stop accepting cheques from that one bank, or 3-accept the losses and keep taking all cheques. As a business owner, you will reject option 3 and consider options 1 and 2. If cheques represent a small part of your business, you might choose option 1, otherwise you will choose 2. In effect this is what the businesses are doing - they don't accept credit cards from high risk countries.

There can be other reasons as well. Exclusive territory distributorships leaps to mind. The contract to distribute a product may preclude sales outside of a geographical area.

Yes, I understand that. But, when you are not fraud, and they treat you like you are, because they put you in same box with frauds, you have right to be angry.

Exactly today I recieved mail from my Ilford seller, who is not in my country. They are sending me today ordered products, even if they have not get confirmation from bank my payment is on their account. Reason for that trust is because I allways pays on time for several years I am dealing with them. They are not afraid I will fraud them, and they don't think I am fraud because my country is on that black list. They gave me chance to prove my honour, and I earned that trust. Simply as that.

Those big players don't give me chance to prove my honor. And I have right to my feelings, because thay treat me as fraud not knowing me. I know, I am insignificant for them, but I am significant for me and have right to feelings, and to expressing them. If that will left bad mark on those big players, well, that is their problem at the end.

Sad thing is I don't use credit card, I allways make prepaid by bank, but that doesn't help. They don't accept credit cards payments from here and they don't want to accept bank transffer payment. So, what one can conclude from that...

Regards

haris said:

Trust me, it is not a big issue....

Living in communism was good thing in this case, it forced us to learn to get things around which were not available "officially "

Regards

Click to expand...

haris,
You made an interesting comment! You found a positive thread in a negative experience.

A captain in the Soviet Military, who worked with me as an engineer in the nuclear power industry, told me something similar. It's good to see that way.

Paul

If you've tried to buy from the US by bank transfer, it's not a common mode of payment over here, so most people don't know how to do it, and the fees to send or receive a bank transfer can be high (and they differ from state to state and bank to bank), so they aren't worth it for small transactions.

That said, I bought my 2x3" Technika from a photographer in Slovenia, I paid by bank transfer, he sent me the camera by DHL, and all went well. Linhof has a distributor in Slovenia, so there seems to be something of a concentration of second hand Linhof equipment there, often at fairly reasonable prices.

I'm in East European studies, so maybe I have a higher level of comfort than other Americans doing business with that part of the world. It is unfortunate that people unfamiliar with the region don't realize that there is a modern, sophisticated, cosmopolitan, intellectual culture in Sarajevo.

haris said:

Yes, I understand that. But, when you are not fraud, and they treat you like you are, because they put you in same box with frauds, you have right to be angry.

Click to expand...

It is worth examining with whom you should be angry. Should you be angry with a business because they are cautious about with whom they do business or with the fraudsters that have caused your country to be "black listed"?

haris said:

Those big players don't give me chance to prove my honor. And I have right to my feelings, because thay treat me as fraud not knowing me. I know, I am insignificant for them, but I am significant for me and have right to feelings, and to expressing them. If that will left bad mark on those big players, well, that is their problem at the end.

Click to expand...

No business has an obligation to do business with anyone. A contract is voluntary - both parties must agree. The best businesses understand that they can't satisfy everyone, so they choose the customers that they can serve satisfactorily.

Should I be angry with Ilford because they won't sell me colour film? Should I be angy with Royal Dutch Shell because they have not put a gas station on the corner where I would like to buy gas? Why be angry with a company because they have decided not to sell products in Bosnia?

Personally, I like to drink wines from the Santa Cruz (California) mountains. The producers there (that I prefer) do not sell their wines in Ontario (Canada). I am not angry with them though. I know that the real problem is the government liquor monopoly that wants outrageous listing fees and huge minimum sales guarantees to carry the product.

I just want to add to this that, the place I usually buy my Kodak materials, stock most of their filmproducts. It is the only place in Denmark I know where I can get 24x36, 120 and 4x5" off the shelf. That is why I wonder why Kodak would impose the minimum order on them. Kodak should support the dealers that want to sell their products. The same goes for Ilford, Fuji and Polaroid. Let me also add, that Kodak have participated in different arrangements here in Denmark even if they where centeret arround analog.

haris said:

Yes, I understand that. But, when you are not fraud, and they treat you like you are, because they put you in same box with frauds, you have right to be angry.

Exactly today I recieved mail from my Ilford seller, who is not in my country. They are sending me today ordered products, even if they have not get confirmation from bank my payment is on their account. Reason for that trust is because I allways pays on time for several years I am dealing with them. They are not afraid I will fraud them, and they don't think I am fraud because my country is on that black list. They gave me chance to prove my honour, and I earned that trust. Simply as that.

Those big players don't give me chance to prove my honor. And I have right to my feelings, because thay treat me as fraud not knowing me. I know, I am insignificant for them, but I am significant for me and have right to feelings, and to expressing them. If that will left bad mark on those big players, well, that is their problem at the end.

Sad thing is I don't use credit card, I allways make prepaid by bank, but that doesn't help. They don't accept credit cards payments from here and they don't want to accept bank transffer payment. So, what one can conclude from that...

Regards

Click to expand...

Haris; Have you considered PAYPAL? I checked and they offer their service in Bosnia. I have started using them for most of my on-line purchases...it is directly connected to my bank account. Just a suggestion.

Glenn Booth

Paul, David and Glenn, thank you for comments. Glenn, I only from your post here we have PayPal option, thank you for info.

Nigel, yes, if you wach from businass persppective it is one truth, if you wach from my perspective it is another truth

And you are right in world in which one has to pay tax, and when get ill government (to whom one payed tax) tells: You know, while we rule this country, health care is also business, so if you don't have money, die you punk. In that world (that is in today world) business and money is God.

I do understand that, but I have rights not to like it. Oh, well, there are countries and companies which also do businesses but are less afraid from me as customer. If some don't want my money, I will give it to others.

David A. Goldfarb said:

If you've tried to buy from the US by bank transfer, it's not a common mode of payment over here, so most people don't know how to do it, and the fees to send or receive a bank transfer can be high (and they differ from state to state and bank to bank), so they aren't worth it for small transactions.

Click to expand...

David, I understand that.

Last week I made my order and as usuall I payed by bank transffer. When make payment there is choice who are paying bank expences. Of course, that pays the buyer. So, when buying I pay next:

Price of ordered products
Price of transport in which are included all custom expences (custom forms needed for export) seller has (we call that here spedition)
Expences of my bank and of sellers bank
Tax and custom duties of my country

So, seller doesn't pay anything, I pay everything. And, as I make prepaid, seller send ordered products only when they get money on account. If seller is afraid and not know to work thet way, well, maybe it is bettrer not to buy with them

David A. Goldfarb said:

I'm in East European studies, so maybe I have a higher level of comfort than other Americans doing business with that part of the world. It is unfortunate that people unfamiliar with the region don't realize that there is a modern, sophisticated, cosmopolitan, intellectual culture in Sarajevo.

Click to expand...

Thank you. I can't say anything else except thank you for those words.

Enjoy life.

Nigel said:

No business has an obligation to do business with anyone. A contract is voluntary - both parties must agree. The best businesses understand that they can't satisfy everyone, so they choose the customers that they can serve satisfactorily.

Click to expand...

What would you do if someone tells: "We don't want to give you a job you because you are ugly. We had ugly employee earlier and he steals from this firm. So, no ugly people can work here anymore."

Or, to make it worse, let's use situation when ugly is not issue, but collour of skin. Or whatever, but reason for not getting job is not ones skills, or ethic, reason for not getting job is because one looks like someone before who made problems. After all firm which give job makes business, and as you said:

"No business has an obligation to do business with anyone."

Giving a job is also business decision (one sells skills, firm buys those skills), so...

SO: I am ugly (I am from Bosnia), some ugly people stealed earlier (made cc fraud), they don't work with ugly people anymore.

That smells like ksenophobya and racism to me. Maybe I am wrong, but it smells ugly to me...

i had my local pro-shop tell me a few years ago
that kodak was not making tri-x anymore.

it too bad when camera stores do their best
to dissuade their client base ..

jnanian said:

i had my local pro-shop tell me a few years ago
that kodak was not making tri-x anymore.

it too bad when camera stores do their best
to dissuade their client base ..

Click to expand...

This remembered me of next:

We have gray market gere, of course From time to time, companies publish ads telling that there is illegal copy of their product and how to recognize it and separate from original.

So, could manufacturer publish ad and tell (for example): "There are distributers of our products which tell customers this or that product is not manufacturered anymore. We by this inform users of this or that product it is misinformation and this or that product is still in production."

And let distributers to think about their ethic and status...

It isn't that hard, or it is?...